SPEAKER_00 0:14

Welcome to the Pan Am Podcast, brought to you by the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York. This podcast and our museum are dedicated to celebrating the legacy of the world's most iconic airlock, Pan American World Airways. My name is Tom Betty and I'm the host of this program. Thank you for joining us. The Pan Am Museum Foundation is a nonprofit organization. Please visit our website for more information at the Panamuseum.org. Again, our website is the Pan Ammuseum.org. You can also find us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. If you are using Apple Podcasts, please consider leaving a review. It will help others discover this program. If you're not familiar with Pan Am, welcome. We are honored to have you here and for you to learn about what we're all about. If you already know of Pan Am, worked for or flown on the airline, or just love our history, it's good to be with you again. So with that, let's get this episode in the air, so to speak. Welcome aboard your Pan American jet clipper. Mary Lou's husband, John, was sent on special assignment by Pan Am to be the chief training pilot for Afghanistan's national airline. This is an interesting time period in Afghan history as the Progressive King, who ascended to the throne in 1933 at the age of 19, was deposed in 1973 and went into exile a year after the Bigelows moved back to the United States. Mary Lou will discuss her time working for TWA and Pan Am and then what it was like to live in Afghanistan. But first, an editorial comment. We have an exciting announcement. I am honored to inform you that Mr. Adam Aaron, the CEO of AMC Theaters, is now sponsoring this program personally. Thank you, Mr. Aaron, for your generous support of the Pan Am Podcast and the Pan Am Museum. This is the 20th episode of this program. I want to give a particular shout out to someone specific. Maddox Henry is a 16-year-old high school student in the Midwest. He posted recently on our Facebook page that the Pan Am Podcast is one of his most favorite podcasts, and Pan Am is one of his favorite airlines. And he loves history even more because of our program. Maddox Henry, this is one of the greatest compliments I've ever received, and for me, all the hard work it takes to produce this show is all worth it when I hear that it inspired a young person's interest in history. Thank you. Since going live in August of 2021, the podcast has been downloaded over 38,000 times in 115 countries as of the time of this recording. Recently, the program has been awarded the 2022 Silver Muse Creative Award. The reason for our success with this show is you, our listeners. You've stuck with us for 20 episodes. The Pan Am Museum cannot thank you enough for your continued support. It is important to tell you that this is a passion project for me, and this work is 100% volunteer. I was recently in Los Angeles to speak at the World Wings chapter lunch there, and someone asked me how much the program is costing the museum and what's my fee. I said that I'm a member of the museum's board and this is all volunteer. They didn't believe me and asked again. I said my work is all 100% volunteer because I believe in the museum and the stories of Pan Am should be told. Why am I telling you this? Because, borrowing from an NPR membership drive, if you like what we've done with the Pan Am podcast, please consider making a donation to support the great work the Pan Am Museum is doing. You can make a one-time donation, a recurring donation, andor become a museum member. You might want to consider becoming a sustaining donor like myself, the reoccurring donation option. Every month, my credit card is charged a monthly donation to support our nonprofit organization. There are links in the episode description to make tax-deductible donations and become a member of the museum. As a member of the Pan Am Museum, you get free admission to the Cradle of Aviation in Garden City, New York, and discounts at our physical museum store and select museum events, such as our annual gala. In addition, and most respectfully, don't forget the Pan Am Museum and your estate planning, so together we can work to ensure the legacy of Pan Am endures for generations to come. Back to this podcast program. Be sure to subscribe on whatever platform you use to listen to these podcasts, like Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon, Audible, and many more. By subscribing, the Apple automatically notify you the moment we publish a new episode. If you are listening through Apple Podcasts, please leave us a rating and a review. This is important because with every review and rating, Apple's computers automatically link us with new people to discover our program for the first time. You can also rate us on Spotify and others. Again, thank you for joining me on this journey. And another update. After Pan Am closed, Linda Reynolds saved seven VHS tapes of corporate training videos. These videos have not been seen in over 30 years. We are converting these into digital files, and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel for updates. Special thanks to Linda for saving these so future generations can enjoy. If you have any Pan Am corporate tapes, especially in-flight videos or training videos, please let us know. We would love to add to our collection and make them available for all to enjoy. Now on to our interview. After marrying pilot John Bigelow in 1964, Mary Lou hung up her wings and started working in reservations and then became a ticket sales agent at the Miami downtown office for four years. In 1968, her husband, now a Pan Am captain, was given a special assignment by the airline to be stationed in Afghanistan to serve as the chief training pilot for the country's national carrier, Ariana Airlines, which Pan Am owned a 49% share. Mary Lou and her husband then moved to Afghanistan and lived there for four years between 1968 and 1972. In the early 1990s, Mary Lou founded an economic development supplement for Massachusetts banker and tradesman. Because of this work, she attended the 1993 World Economic Forum meetings held in Hong Kong. In addition, for more than a decade, she produced a local cable TV program in Arlington, Massachusetts, called the Mary Lou Bigelow Show, with two series, the Global Connection and the Afghanistan series. She is an active member of the Winchester and Arlington Chambers of Commerce, Winchester Senior Provider Network Group, and current president of the Boston chapter of World Wings International. Mary Lou is a successful real estate agent in the Boston area with Gibson Sotheby's International Realty. She resides in Winchester, Massachusetts, where she manifests her passion for giving back to her community. For more information about Mary Lou and to read her blog and view her Winchester and Arlington cable TV shows, visit www.maryLouBigelow.com forward slash TV. There is a link to this website in the episode description. Welcome to the Paname Podcast, Mary Lou.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Thanks for inviting me, Tom. It's so exciting. I've listened to some of the podcasts that you've done, and they're absolutely wonderful. I especially love the way you add in the sounds, you know, the music and some of the old uh TV ads, etc. It's and and some of the stories. It's wonderful. It's like going back when I was a child listening to the radio, and I used to call it watching the radio, because we would sit and actually look at the radio. But uh no, it's it's wonderful. I I it really uh so it surprised me to tell you the truth when I heard it. I was it was very excited.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Well, thank you. Part of our job with this program is to bring to life the stories uh and and the lives that people like yourself lived. That's why we we're we're doing what we're doing. Because it's it's it's important for history, it's important for humanities, and uh and thank you for joining us. So, first question of this program is tell us a little bit about yourself, where you grew up, where you went to school, and what interested you in becoming a flight attendant?

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Well, I'm a child of the 50s. And you were very um sort of isolated, I would say. Uh, we were a very easy generation. Uh so back then also it was it was difficult thinking ahead of what I would like to do later in life because we didn't have much choice. Actually, um uh uh I girls looked forward to either being a teacher or a nurse or maybe um a secretary, um, unless you were in the sciences. I grew up in Medford, Massachusetts, and uh rather shy, I would say. After school, I went on to the University of Massachusetts and spent four years there. I was in sociology, was my major, and I loved philosophy, but I just remembered hearing so many stories by other students who had been to maybe just Chicago or San Francisco, and that excited me. I thought, oh, I was so envious. I said one day I would like to be able to travel outside of my little town of Medford, Massachusetts. And uh so I'm sure that was in the back of my mind, plus the fact that I had an uncle who was a pioneer in flying back in the 20s, the late 20s. He ended up moving to uh Puerto Rico where he started a flying school. I never met him, but I heard so many wonderful stories about him. He died uh in a car accident the year I was born. So, but I do have a lot of uh pictures and uh album uh showing him with Amelia Earhart, etc. So that was always in the back of my mind. So once I graduated from the university, or I'd say about junior year, you know, I couldn't imagine. I I I did not want to teach, I could not imagine what to do. And then I saw this wonderful ad of uh by Pan Am in the girls in the beautiful blue uniform. And I I just would I looked at that and I said, that is what I want to do. Period, that is it. So that was what I had planned. Uh after graduation, I immediately went took an interview. I had an interview. Uh, well, I called Pan Am, first of all. They were not interviewing in the area, so I called New York. And the person who answered said, Oh, we'd be delighted to interview you, but you must have a foreign language, a couple of foreign languages if possible, and you must be fluent in it. Oh, I was crushed. Because my little French I knew would never pass. Never. So it I was crushed at first, as I say, but then um I never mind, persistence, right? I into the next um interview in Boston was with United Airlines. So I dressed up, you know, and in those days we always uh dressed up with our little dresses and heels, whatever. And I opened the door and I at the for this interview, and I saw 200 other girls who looked like me. You know, we were all the same age, we had all uh been to college, or at least two years of college. I had graduated, I had been to four. And that's it. So I sat down and and I watched as I was an M. My my Megan name was Moore. So they did they interviewed everyone one by one alphabetically. By the time they got to mine, my uh the the M's, they were taking them in three at a time. And all they did was line us up, they talked to us, they never let us say a word, and out the door we went. So we knew, forget it. They had already chosen whoever they wanted. And uh so that was it. So of course I was disappointed, but never mind. I am going to be to go in the airlines. So the next interview was TWA. And the same thing. I opened up the to walk into the interview. There were 200 girls all dressed up, they all looked like me, they all had this similar background. And again, they started alphabetically. Oh no, here we go again. Why isn't my name like it is now? Big along. No, it was more. So we got through till the I say the J's or L's, and they sent us off to lunch. We went off to lunch, and while I'm at lunch, I I had a coffee and I decided to have an English muffin. And lo and behold, what happens but the the uh nice hot butter dripped right down the front of my very light beige silk dress.

SPEAKER_04 16:56

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Oh no, is correct. So, but thank the Lord that happened because when I went back, I it was uh oh just about time for me to go in. So all I did was strut in and I said, thanks a lot. Because I was in the second round and went to lunch, see what happened to my dress. I did not come here this way, you know, whatever. Somehow I must have explained it away, and I think they liked that explanation and felt I could handle myself, and I think I I really think that is why I was hired. And that was in 1959, and I flew with Thiel Duwey domestically for nine months, and um uh so you know to Columbus, Ohio, uh to St. Louis, a lot of trips to St. Louis, etc. And I have a funny story. I have a funny story about my very first flight on TWA. It was a Martin, Martin 404. This is a two-engine airplane, something like a DC-3, where you only had 40, maybe 44 passengers, 40 in that range. And it was a very short service, a 45-minute service, and I had to serve lunch on trays that I would carry down to each person. And it was my first trip, and I was alone. I did there was no other stewardess because that's all we needed was the one.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

So here I had never served anyone before, and there I was. So uh it ended up that we had um a very bumpy ride, and the other funny thing was that the the captain and the co-captain, there were only two, uh fine, their first officer, would not speak to me. I went up to the cockpit, they were the unfriendliest crew I have ever met. And of course I went up. Oh, hi, good. You know, I'm Mary Lou Moore and I'm brand new. I've never, uh this is my very first flight, etc. Silence. They absolutely ignored me. And I have a feeling they were having a fight or something, whatever it was. They never spoke to me the whole time. So I did my my I took care of the service and got all the trays out, and then all of a sudden the announcement came over that it was very choppy, we had to sit down. So I made an announcement to everyone to put their uh when they had finished their trays, put, please put your tray under your seat and buckle up, etc. Because they wanted me to sit down as well. And that's what happened, and then we ended up landing, and uh I I was I couldn't believe what was happening. I said, this is what the airline is like, you know, airlines flying. And the one of the most senior girls on TWA came on board at after landing and and uh saw the mess, and she roared with laughter. She was it was so funny. I said, This is my first time, and look what happened. You know, well she had some anyway. So the two of us picked all the trays up, and and uh so that was my introduction to flying. And uh that was really um, that was really quite a story.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

So uh you flew TWA domestic for a little bit, and then you got a promotion and you went to the international division. Tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Oh, yes, well, I couldn't wait, of course. I mean, this is why one of the reasons I wanted Pan Am because Pan Am was strictly international, and and that was my dream. So I was thrilled that at this point I was thrilled that United had turned me down because now I had the chance to fly to Europe. They had the international uh division, uh, which went from all the flights that we uh took were from New York to the gateway cities in Europe. So it would be London, Paris, and these would be round trips basically. You'd have overnight, and then you'd go back the next day. So it would be London, Paris, Rome, uh, Madrid, Lisbon.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

uh Frankfurt and so you really got to know these cities quite well because you kept going back all the time you know and um anyway but in order before I I had flown about nine months and then uh we got a message that they needed to hire a few more people now for international and so I uh attended we had to uh speak with a French teacher because that was my language friend and I went in with another girl my French was terrible you know it was very very bad but anyway so it was fun because what happened was the teacher would ask a question and I would just look at the other girl who spoke French quite well and if she would shake her head you know if she would bob up and down with her head I would do the same thing or she said no you know I oh no you know I would shake my head of course not so no no wee we somehow I got through and I I was thrilled I ended up for the next couple of years the most junior on the international uh flights so a lot of that time was actually on standby but it didn't matter it took me to the wonderful flights I kept flying you know I just didn't um have a regular pattern usually uh we were set up with a pattern for the month and um uh uh this was uh so I was usually on standby but it was a wonderful time was this your first international trips as a flight attendant oh yes yes how how was that tell us about it oh it was absolutely to finally oh my first flight was absolutely wonderful I could not believe it I was on standby and I got a flight that a senior person would absolutely adore it was three days in Paris and one day in Bad Hamburg just outside of Frankfurt it was wonderful so when we um we arrived at our hotel we had a choice of we had about three different hotels where we would stay and um but the hotels were right near the Champs Elysee which was great so what we usually do would arrive and we would have some uh tea in the dining room now uh usually there was something other than tea in our teacups you know because in uniform we we couldn't drink you know but anyway so we would no one's gonna sample your tea no so no one's going to sample our tea so anyway then we we I would always then I I took a nap for you know a couple of hours because you fly at night you would always leave New York at night and arrive in the morning around say seven o'clock in the morning and um but it was so exciting that that first uh three days in Paris and fortunately a navigator and they had navigators in those days uh uh uh loved showing the uh flight attendants all around he made it he walked us all over Paris so and we took the Metro and we just did everything and of course we uh usually the crews would eat together uh we would um yeah you know gather at a certain time and all take uh you know go to sample different restaurants etc so that was a wonderful trip um another one that I just um I always remember was arriving in Italy I just remember opening the door uh or the the um you know when we uh when we arrived and one of the ground personnel with this huge smile said said wouldn't you and oh my goodness it was like ah we're here in Italy so it was very exciting uh to see Europe and whatever but of course um I did long I still longed for the Middle East and Hong Kong and places outside so you started with TWA and a couple episodes back we did a TWA edition of the Panam podcast and we interviewed uh Pam Blasham the director of the TWA museum in Kansas City and she was she started in 1964 so a little bit after you can you tell us a little bit about the TWA culture and also you have the distinction and it's very unusual that you started with one airline and then you transitioned to another so tell us about that story too but let's start with the TWA culture and uh how it was uh to work for that airline well they were uh it was a wonderful airline um I we went to school in Kansas City everyone went to Kansas City to their school about a month of training uh you know with how to serve and oh they would teach us makeup and our hair etc uh of course we were all just about the same size we had to be between 5'2 and 5'8 at that time because of the airplane um you know to be able to reach uh into the overhead racks etc I guess and we all had to be the same weight we were you know if you see a picture back in those days of a lineup of all of the girls you will see that it's practically you know you put a ruler right straight across because we're all about just about the same and of course you've probably heard from others but those were the days when we wore uniforms that were quite fitting and they there they didn't have stretch material. We had there was no question we had to keep our weight within a couple of pounds if we went over a couple of pounds they would um scold us but not only that you couldn't button your uniform so you had to you were forced into it I don't think I've asked this question to anyone before um and it's kind of a logical question. The uniforms looked great but were they comfortable were they practical?

SPEAKER_01 29:32

They were yes they were and but but it we in those days we didn't have the stretchy materials. So we weren't used to them. It was uh uh a jacket that that was you know fit and it fit just for you just tailored for you and that's why if you if you uh put on a few pounds uh it it you just you couldn't button it so it forced us uh I guess so they were comfortable yes they were comfortable in those days they probably aren't if I went back and wore it again I mean unless you're the exact weight for it yeah you would have a problem but you heard it probably about the girdle checks etc you know but um because we had to wear girdles and we had to wear a certain type of lipstick we couldn't wear earrings unless they were you know um designated we couldn't wear a hair up uh in a chignon or anything like that unless we got approval um most of us you know we had to have the short hair uh to clear the collar but none of us thought much of it and of course we had that the rule that we knew that we only had limited time in this career we knew that once we married we would have to leave and uh also I believe age 32 if you weren't if you didn't marry if you reach right reach the age of 32 you would have to leave so that was just understood. I mean young women today would say what you know they wouldn't it's hard to believe but that's the way it was and we never questioned it that was part of our the regulations and of course we went along with it. The culture one thing that really stood out the ages of the pilots the pilots I flew with especially of course in domestic because they were the most junior uh were much much younger so if you ever saw the Pan Am series and the uh ABC series you'll notice they had young pilots well that it was not accurate because most of Pan Am pilots were uh quite mature with their gray hair uh but anyway uh getting back to Chiawai uh they were a lot younger um uh uh they they were more interested in um joining in with the crew with the uh the rear you know the crew cabin crew for parties etc I would say so it was a different a little different quite a bit different that way but as far as um enjoying Europe you know people uh made a lot of friends over in Europe and um often sometimes you know they would and in fact often we would make friends around the world and so we would meet them but we had to send telegrams in those days to let them know we were coming or you know Western Union we didn't have our cell phones and and uh or emails you know it was difficult I remember one time I was supposed to meet a fellow in um uh one fellow in Germany and another one in Rome and they took me off the flight what was I to do to let them know it was it was difficult that way but um and and in those days by the way we would meet people on the flights we were always treated like ladies and I'd say ladies and gentlemen because in those days in TWA there were no men it was basically uh women and although an international we I believe we had some but we were always treated like ladies because they dressed in those days anyway the passengers dressed and and the the people who traveled had had the money and etc and you never uh worried about about meeting people and um if they invited you to dinner it was no problem at least I didn't feel that way.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Well and and your your story is very interesting and very unusual because you started with TWA domestic and then you went TWA international and then which is very unusual you decided to switch airlines and you were hired at Pan Am in 1962. Tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Well a friend of mine who um was an American airline stewardess told me uh that Pan Am was interviewing we were right in New York and of course they were interviewing in New York and that she was going to go in for an interview and she said the reason uh that we would have a good chance because they Pan Am had a lot of foreign girls a lot of beautiful lovely smart intelligent foreign girls but because they had languages they obviously they had wonderful fluent languages but some of the uh passengers had started complaining that after all it was an American airline but they kept running into you know why do they have so many foreign sewers so Panham decided they needed to uh bring some more American girls in that had a little bit of language you know just enough to get by so when she told me this I was so excited her name was Mary Lou also Mary Lou Gallagher and so she told me and the two of us went in for our interview sure enough we opened the door and there they are the same 200 right 200 girls all dressed up same thing and um of course we had already been in the airline so we probably knew how to handle ourselves a little better. But anyway very fortunately and they only hired uh I we were told we were something like two out of like 3000 people that they had so it was quite a quite a thing but anyway so we we uh both got on and um we ended up rooming together uh we stayed at an all-women's hotel actually in New York while we were doing training at out at the uh at JFK and um so yeah so it it was my dream had come true in other words persistence but it was also luck I never would have I never would have thought to call if Mary Lou hadn't mentioned it to me so I'm very very grateful to her for that because I really wanted to get to the Middle East and of course that would uh Afghanistan you know we didn't fly to Afghanistan but um I really wanted to see the Middle East and the Far East and one of the one of the uh of course the training was similar very similar training our uniforms were similar as far as fit you know uh and our height but you know we still it was still in the 1962 we still had the same most of the airlines had that same regulation you know you had to be like 5'2 to 5'8 and certain weights and etc let's talk about beirut and someone that you met in Beirut oh yes well beirut was always uh so much fun uh I really really enjoyed Beirut one of the trips uh well we called it the Paris of the Middle East uh or the Switzerland of the of the Middle East it was um the beautiful it had beautiful weather it um we went uh uh uh uh water skiing on the Mediterranean uh across the street from the Phoenicia Hotel my favorite hotel in the whole world was the Phoenicia Intercontinental Hotel in Beirut uh it was just one fabulous hotel but we would go skiing across the street at the Hotel George's and uh so uh the um the Phoenicia Hotel had a wonderful pool and uh nightclub etc where you spent a lot of time anyway I had met the manager of the hotel and he introduced me to a pilot who uh actually was uh chief pilot at that time he was uh director of operations of Alia Royal Jordanian Airlines and he was but he used to be the chief pilot of Lebanese International Lia and that's how he knew him and of course uh his name was John Bigelow who later and was he American he was Canadian and he learned to fly in the Canadian Air Force um and so I met him and uh we went out to dinner with the manager and his um um wife or whatever and and I went out to dinner with John and uh we had a wonderful time and it ended up um I married him three months later wow yeah yeah we decided to get married and you know I mean it was so quick so crazy but anyway we did and then of course I had to quit because in those days you had to quit when you married and I wouldn't have minded staying on actually you know but anyway looking back on it but anyway we I quit and then we went down to well we ended up moving to Florida we got married and we went down to Florida and then I talked him into going with Pan Am I so he joined Pan Am then he joined Pan Am now I didn't I say I talked him into it I mean any pilot wanted to that was that was the airline you know but I always say I talked him into it but uh that and then he became a training pilot.

SPEAKER_05 41:05

We're going to take a quick break with a Pan Am commercial from 1969 bargain hunters of the world your hunting days are over now you can find a whole new world of bargain tours like you've never seen before all under one roof the tours are called Pan Am Holidays they cover every part of the world they come in all prices and styles from basic bus to savvy safari they're planned by somebody who knows the tour business inside out and they're backed by the world's most experienced airline see a Pan Am travel agent or a Pan Am ticket office walk through one door and you can walk out with the world now back to our interview with Mary Lou Bigelow so take us through the 1960s now that uh your husband's working for Pan Am and you had to quit because you got married which for modern audiences that is insane but that's the way things were in his 60s.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

We just didn't question it. It's just a fact it's the way it was so yes so um he became a training pilot because of his vast experience he was able to check out as a captain and um and he became a training captain on the 727s and um I I ended up working in reservations down in Miami and then later at the ticket counter uh so okay until 1968 and then so from 1964 to 1968 so you you came back to work for Paname as a ticket agent in reservations right uh did you long for being in the air as a flight attendant during that time not really no no for some reason I mean we still traveled a lot um you know we we still and being married was new and and we loved Miami and um we you know so I really no I didn't miss it. Um and then in 1968 John came home one day and he said I've been asked to go to Afghanistan on a technical assistance program with the Airline over there, Ariana Afghan Airlines. And he explained that Pan Am owned 49% of it and the government owned 51%. And then he said, I bet you don't even know where it is. I said, I certainly do know where Afghanistan is. And in fact, on the my last flight with Pan Am as a stewardess, I met a the uh one of the um uh ministers from Afghanistan. Uh I I forget whether it was anyway um foreign ministry, I believe, something. I met him on the airplane and he told me all about Afghanistan and the mountains and the dust and the everything about it. And I said, I said to him, Oh, that sounds so exciting and such an adventure. I said, I hope to go there. I really want to go there someday. Well, so when John said, Do you want to go? I said, I'll be back. You know, yesterday. I'm ready to go. And he said, Well, we're leaving in two weeks. I said, Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

Tell us about that experience. So you're moving to Afghanistan.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

Right. So, in a way, uh, I wasn't too surprised because I had been to Karachi and, you know, in the in the Middle East, in that area. So uh I kind of knew a little bit of what to expect, but not really. I it was amazing when we flew into Afghanistan and we could see the mountains and the valley, you know, just green down in the valley, uh, as we came in. And I just remember uh we uh we went through the airport and then on the drive into the city, it's a long drive into the city, and all I saw were bicycles everywhere, very few cars. Uh, we had sent our Volkswagen out there because we were told that that is the best, uh the easiest car to have repaired while we're over there. So we did send, and sure enough, there were many, there were all kinds of Volkswagens there, and and just lots of cars. And people trying anyway, we ended up driving straight to um uh Sherry Now section, uh, which is you know in the near the downtown area, sort of, and uh uh we stayed in a uh an apartment on the second floor of an apartment that was right on a main road. And it had this wonderful balcony, thank goodness. I was so happy, because I was able to take all kinds of video. I had a super 8 camera, and I took lots and lots of film there. You I would see goats go by, and then I'd see camels go by, and then then um you I would see uh uh like uh people carrying barrels on their back, you know, maybe three or four barrels all tied, and you know, the turban man carrying this or or these um some sort of like uh anyway, pulling pulling like a flatbed type of truck that they would pull and and uh for water, bringing water jugs, etc. Uh then we and we saw the women uh walking by with the blue shadri, the uh basically mostly blue there, blue shadres, that covered the woman from head to toe, and it just had little tiny holes in the face area so that they could see and breathe. Okay. But anyway, it was uh fascinating um to see. And you just felt you were way back in the Middle Ages.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

And this is 1968?

SPEAKER_01 48:24

This was in 1968. It was uh uh a lot of it was very interesting. The we um before we went, we received uh some booklets telling us how to um, you know, how we should react over there, etc. Like we were told that we had to make sure that we were always covered. Our arms and legs always had to be covered when we were outside. But I didn't have to cover my my head. Um I didn't have to wear a throat tree or um or even a you know a bandana. Um sometimes I did. Um out of respect I would, but I didn't need to. And I was never condemned for it. You know, the uh they they understood that the American women or the foreign women didn't do that, and and um we were respected. Uh the the Afghans were it was a wonderful time back in those days. The uh King Zayer Shah ruled. Uh while we were there, we never even heard of a murder. I'm sure there were, but you know, we we didn't have um TV, there was no TV. We would listen to BBC on a shortwave radio, and we would get our New York Times, Sunday New York Times, of course, a week late. So everything, uh most of our news was a week late. We just learned to live with it.

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Interesting. Especially from a modern lens today, where you know, if we're a day late and not knowing something in the news, it's like the end of the world, and you're you're a week.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

Yeah, it's very that's very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 50:22

Oh, yes. It was a listening post in those days. Afghanistan was a listening post. When we would have parties, and we had many, many parties because we didn't have TV. So it was like in the old days when people always family was important and they'd all, you know, because they'd all get together. Well, all of the we would have parties every weekend. And um I used to call my parties Noah's Ark because we'd have a Turkish couple, we'd have an English couple, we'd have, you name it, German, Swiss, we had the gamut. And you always knew who the political officers were because they would work the crowd, and then you could see them walking, talking, really, making sure that they met everyone. And there was always talk like, we wonder who is really CIA. And we we kind of figured one of them who was one of the Americans with CIA. But and another thing was, well, we had about 1,200 Americans living in Afghanistan. 800, approximately 800 were living at Kabul. And there were 800 Russians also. They, though, lived in these uh apartment buildings all completely uh fenced in. You'd see them being busted to the market, and they keep them, you know, they were all together, etc. And the next largest group were Germans. There were 400, above 400 Germans in Kabul.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

Interesting. Tell us a little bit about Ariana Airlines.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

In the 50s, Pan Am ended up buying 49% of the airline. 51% was owned by the Afghan government. Also, Pan Am had a contract uh to manage the airline and to uh they brought in their advisors. They had something like 16 or so in the beginning. Robert Blake was, I believe, the first executive uh director of the Pan Am team, but it was down in Kandahar where we had the Americans had built the uh the airport there, the airport terminal. There were a large number of Americans. By the time we got there, Robert Blake had uh gone back to New York and then ended up working in the PM building, in the uh working you know for the TAP program. And Charlie Bennett took over actually in 1965. He became the executive director. But we arrived in 1968, and there were just about six of us who were advisors. We had John, my husband, John Bigelow, was the uh advisory uh chief pilot, and he was there for ongoing training. All of the pilots had already been trained, of course, from the U.S. by PM and of course FAA um, you know, pass. John said they were excellent pilots. Excellent. Uh and we had a chief uh engineer, uh flight engineer, Jim Fox, and uh the chief uh maintenance guy was Ed Mix, and we had some others, Ed Popko and uh Joe Magia, um, all to do with different parts of maintenance of engines and that sort of thing. Um there was also a sales office there, small sales office. But they were not in the same program as we were. Anyway, we we arrived in 1968, and we were supposed to be there one year, but we ended up four years. And the reason the reason we ended up staying was because we had a crash. Our 727, uh only 727, that was really the reason we were all there, crashed at Gatwick. And it was a uh it was the uh the um chief pilot's era. Uh he didn't put the flats down or something, whatever. It was his era. And um he ended up, he lived, and um he and the flight officer left. But he he uh he was an excellent pilot, but he was a daredevil and he was a cowboy, as my husband used to say. He always wondered, you know, he didn't he didn't quite believe in the team uh uh uh flying as a team, and I think most pilots, you know, they they work together as a team. He was the chief pilot and a big ego. And it's it's terrible because the daughter of Ed Mix's daughter, 19 years old, Karen Mix, uh beautiful girl, she was visiting over Christmas and going back to college, and uh she she died in the crash. So of course Ed was never the same after that, you know. He was very difficult to get over.

SPEAKER_00 56:09

So looking back at your time in Afghanistan, uh, what really stands out to you? Because obviously it was a very special time for you.

SPEAKER_01 56:19

It was a very special time. Um I loved my time in Afghanistan. I loved bargaining with the people. I I loved um, I loved uh I during the day often I would go into the shops and bargain and just for fun. I remember one shopkeeper, every time he saw me, he said, oh no, here she comes. He used to say that I was much uh the best bargainer he knew, much better than any Afghan he knew, you know, and uh I would go in and with my long navy blue coat all covered up, you know, and I spend lots of time chatting with them. Because, you know, he spoke English, some of them you know did speak English. And uh I remember one, oh I have to tell you about this one one time bargaining that was just absolutely uh something. I it was on a side street, and I always uh traveled though with my cook and bottle washer. My basically he was the head of my household for as far as uh household help. And he was the cook, and he also came with me when I went shopping or I went touring on my own because he could translate for me, etc. And uh he was very helpful. So one day I saw this beautiful chair. It was um you could see very old, a hand-carved chair with a very, very low seat, like they sit cross-legged on, um, from Nuristan, way up in the mountains. And there was another one like it, but it was fairly new. I pointed to that, I said, Cayum, my name of my servant was Cayum. Cayum, I love that chair. We have to, I have to have it. So we went over to them, we started bargaining, and you know, I when I bargained, I made a lot of gesticulations and you know, whatever, and and uh but always, you know, I knew how to bargain with them, always smiling, always happy. And a French couple was was there as well. In fact, we had walked away, that's what happened. We had walked away, talked about it, came back, and then it was a French couple there um bidding. So we got right into the bidding, and so uh uh we bid for it for it against them for the old one. Well, sure enough, the crowd came around us, all you know, men in their turbans, all a huge crowd came watching this. They they just delighted in in watching our bargaining. And it ended up that the shop owner handed some money to Cayum, uh so the crowd couldn't see, just a small amount. And then Cayum explained to me that I was to to uh I was to uh try to bargain 5500 Afghanis more than the other people. But he had actually given us the money to do it. So anyway, I did, and it ended up that we won it, and the crowd cheered. They wanted me to get it, you know? It was wonderful. I was so excited, and it ended up that the other couple paid the same amount for the new chair, but it wasn't wasn't half the chair that mine was, you know. So, but that's it was, you know, it was I was very comfortable. In fact, I would go into the um the um bazaar, the money bazaar, it was jam-packed with people, all men always, you know, with the tournaments on. I would go in there and you'd be jostled around in the crowd. Didn't matter. I I never I always felt confident. I I never felt um, you know, uh no one bothered me.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

As a historian, this is a very interesting time period because it's a time period before the Soviets invaded Afghanistan and started that war, and it's before the American War and before September 11th. And it's a a glimpse into what Kabul and Afghanistan as a country, uh, what it was like in the 1960s under the king's rule. But I understand that you have a contemporary connection to Afghanistan and you were able to return in 2002. Can you tell us a little bit about your experiences going back to a post-9-11 Afghanistan?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:48

Yes, once umce I realized that we had gone back into Afghanistan and I realized what was happening with the Taliban, it this was a country that I didn't know. I could not believe uh the way the women were being treated, etc. Uh perhaps you could tell from my story of uh especially that story where I told about uh being out among the crowds and and bargaining. Uh the people, they were wonderful people. And when I was back in the States, uh when you when I was uh watching TV, all you could see were guns and and turban men running around with guns and shooting, and uh they had no idea of what these people were, who they were. And so in 2001 I had a cable TV program. It was a local program in Winchester and Arlington called the Mary Lou Bigelow Show. I had one series that was called The Global Connection. Uh, but after 2001, uh I was so disappointed in in um being able to tell the story of the Afghans and how, you know, what I remembered by living there, I decided to start a second series called the Afghanistan series. And then I started um interviewing Afghans or people who had lived in Afghanistan and started showing some of the video that I took while I was there. Trying to tell the story of these people as wonderful human beings. The Afghans, I believe, in the United States were afraid to speak up because as far as uh TV uh people were seeing they they they were all fighters, etc. So anyway, in 2001, I went over back to Afghanistan with uh a couple of uh Afghan friends of mine who lived in New England in order to attend a Reconstruction Conference. And I went over for a month and a half, and I filmed that Reconstruction Conference. It's on my website. It was about three days, and it was uh a wonderful event. Uh, they had such wonderful hopes and dreams of bringing back the Afghanistan that they knew. And um also in uh 2004 I returned to do more filming. Um and uh a fun story there. I had or talked to the former president Dr. Ashraf Ghani, and I knew Dr. Abdullah Abdullah because I had interviewed him while I was over there. So when I returned to Afghanistan in 2004, I immediately went to the uh foreign ministry because Dr. Abdullah Abdullah was the uh foreign minister, registered there because then they would always call me when they gave a press conference. And I'll never forget going to one of the press conferences, sitting right at the front, just like uh Helen Thomas used to sit right in the center, and all around me were BB, you know, BBC, CNN, from all over the world, and they're Looking at me, like, who's she? ACTV, which was Arlington, Massachusetts, Arlington Cable TV. Well, when we all were seated, and then uh Ashraf Ghani and Dr. Abdullah Abdullah walked in, they sat down, they saw me, and they both bowed their heads toward me. And I did the same in return, of respect. And I'm sure there was a lot of remarks going on behind me. Who is she?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:36

She's from Panama.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:38

But you know, but they always they always felt comfortable. The Afghans felt comfortable. They knew I had lived there before I was there to tell the good story. And so I was always welcome. Ended up filming the son-in-law of the former king in the palace. That was a 20-minute interview with him. It ended up years later, uh, his grandson, I believe, called me from Geneva and said he was shocked to see, you know, his grandfather. And it's the only remembrance he really had of him. And he was just so, so thankful that I had done that, you know. So it made me feel so good.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:22

That's great. What message do you have for our listeners in regards to Afghanistan and your hope of what Afghanistan could be?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:34

All Afghans love their country, just like we love our country. They they would love to go back. They would love, they can never go back because it's changed so much. But they would love to be go back with the modern buildings and everything that's going on now, but to live in peace. That's all they do. They um they love their uh their family people, they they they they love uh guests. Um if you're a guest in an Afghan home, there's not they there's nothing they wouldn't do for you. Uh and it's a um you know they're just people like we are. And and I it's just such a pity to see what's happened. And it was a I don't this leaving Afghanistan this time is crushing to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:37

So let's get back to Pan Am and TWA. What message do you have for our listeners on why Pan Am history should be important to them?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

Pan Am was I the iconic pioneer. We opened up the Pacific. We had so many firsts. But I I would love to have been back then when Jupp uh insisted that we would open up the Pacific, and that's what he did. It was uh his is an amazing story. It's a story of persistence and uh any any avi any uh one interested in aviation must go back and and and see the the uh beginnings of international um international uh history through Pan Am's ice. I mean the what what Pan Am did.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:51

So looking back, uh Pan Am and TWA both are are no longer in business. However, they still capture the public's imagination for romantic adventure, they still capture this luxury uh view of what travel once was, this nostalgic view. How does all that make you feel because you were part of that?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:20

Well, I'm so lucky. And it's so, you know, when I look back, I took it for granted. I took it all in for I took it so for granted. I had no idea um what I was living. You know, it was just a way of living. It was it was, doesn't everyone do this? You know, as I look back, oh I was a lucky girl. Uh it was uh a different time. It was a time when when um men were gentlemen and women were ladies, and uh it was a time to explore the world. So many cities now are, you know, one copies another with the big buildings, etc. But in my day it was uh it was a wonderful uh to explore, to see culture, you know, the way it had been cultures for for so many years, and you saw their way of living, where now it's becoming a lot the same all over. Um but I think that that uh the world is you know became so small to us. We really as I say embraced the world and its peoples and its cultures and um it was uh it it was hard to come back home, for instance, after Afghanistan, because we we as Pan Am people um look at the world uh I think differently than than people who haven't really traveled and that much, you know. A lot more people are traveling now, and it's it's wonderful that they are.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:23

So how does it make you feel that there are two museums dedicated to two airlines? Uh the Pan Am Museum on Long Island, New York, and also the TWA Museum in Kansas City, Missouri, and there's the TWA Hotel. Uh Pan Am still shows up in movies and TV shows and numerous books. How does that make you feel that you were a part of this iconic airline?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:00

Well, I I'm I'm I as I say I'm I'm a lucky I'm a lucky person. I am so happy that I I that I was able to fly for both of those iconic airlines when I did. And uh it was a time of discovery, and um I think I am so thankful that there are those museums, the TWA Museum in Kansas City and our Panam uh Museum Foundation at the Cradle of Aviation Museum in Long Island, um, which you're doing an absolutely wonderful job there. Um it's it's so important to keep that story alive. It's so important in the in this in the history of aviation. And um we cannot let the name, I I just don't want the name, right now it's still, as you say, it's uh people still look back on it as the glamour days and the glamour airlines. And that's why I am so happy that Pan Am brands has you know continue to to license um uh different products or different, you know, uh Pan Am. Anytime I carry a Pan Am bag with me all the time. I'm so proud of Pan Am. And so many people will look at it and they'll tell me stories that go way back. I remember I had a a um, I'm in real estate now. I'm with Gibson Sotheby's International Realty in Arlington, Massachusetts. And I had a lovely couple that I listed their house, and when they found out that I had been with Pan Am, they were so excited. They uh escaped Russia and Pan Am took them out. So Pan Am took them to a new life. So when I prepared my CM, my market analysis for them, at the at the very end of the analysis, I said, Pan Am took you out to a new life, and now I am going to take you out of your home for another new life.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:34

That's great.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:35

And and we still keep up. Anytime says, it's so interesting, anytime anyone says that they tell me a story of Pan Am or whatever, I I we keep up. We keep in contact. And that is like with all the the various um Pan Am reunions that that uh we have to this day. It's amazing. I don't think there's another another company that has the reunions that we still have. The minute you say you worked with Pan Am, we don't care if it was cargo or if it was sales or if you were a pilot or whatever, we embrace. No questions asked, we embrace. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:21

Yeah, I and I definitely have experienced that welcomeness. Um I was a passenger uh when I was a little boy. Um so that's my Pan Am connection. But I mean, even as a even with that connection, uh the Pan Am community, you know, treats me as one of their own and and and I'm so grateful for it. Any other message you would like to uh add that we did not cover in this interview?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:52

Well, we have one life. We need to live it to the fullest. And if there's any message I can say to a young person is go after your dream, follow your dream, and and they come true. So I guess that's my message. And love your neighbor. Love your neighbor, you know, embrace, embrace the peoples of the world. That's what I would like to.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:36

That's a great message. Well, thank you, Mary Lou, for your time and sharing your stories. You've had an incredible life with uh the airlines, TWA, Pan Am Ariana, living in Afghanistan, having your own TV show, real estate, you name it. It's very interesting. And I want to thank you very much for coming on the program.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:01

Thank you so much, Tom. It was a delight to be with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:11

Pan Am was a pioneer in air travel and still stands as one of the most iconic and innovative airlines in aviation history. That legacy lives on at the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York, where you can explore the rich history of the aircrafts and individuals at the heart of the company known as the world's most experienced airline. For more information about the Pan Am Museum, check out our website at www.thepan Amuseum.org. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. As was once a tagline in one of our commercials, we would greatly appreciate your support to help the Pan Am Museum continue making the going great. You can also support the museum by shopping on our online store for all things Pan Am accessories, apparel, jewelry, books, models, and posters. We want to hear from you. If you have a question for us or want to share your story, our email address is podcast at the Pan Am Museum dot org. As flight crews once said to passengers departing for their destinations around the world, thank you for flying, Pan Am