SPEAKER_03 0:14

Welcome to the Pan Am Podcast, brought to you by the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York. This podcast and our museum are dedicated to celebrating the legacy of the world's most iconic airlock, Pan American World Airways. My name is Tom Betty, and I'm the host of this program. Thank you for joining us. This program is sponsored by the generous support of Mr. Adam Aaron, the CEO of AMC Entertainment Holdings, Incorporated. The Pan Am Museum Foundation is a nonprofit organization. Please visit our website for more information at the Pan Ammuseum.org. Again, our website is the Panamuseum.org. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. If you are using Apple Podcasts, please consider leaving a review. It will help others discover this program. If you're not familiar with Pan Am, welcome. We are honored to have you here, and for you to learn about what we're all about. If you already know of Pan Am, worked for, or flown on the airline, or just love our history, it's good to be with you again. So with that, let's get this episode in the air, so to speak. Welcome aboard your Pan American jet clipper. Abnknale Jr. to talk about his interesting background. He will also provide tips on protecting your identity and wallet and how to avoid scams. But first, let's listen to the trailer of the 2002 Academy Award-nominated film by Steven Spielberg, Catch Me If You Can, starring Leonardo DiCaprio and Tom Hanks, loosely based on Frank's life.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Welcome to Miami Mutual Bank. How am I helping?

SPEAKER_09 2:26

I'd like to cash this check here, and then I'd like to take you out for a steak dinner.

SPEAKER_06 2:37

I do realize I'm not.

SPEAKER_09 2:39

I sure am, little lady. The jump seat is open. It's been a while since I've done this. Which one do you jump seat again?

SPEAKER_06 2:44

Dr. Connors did it DL. Dr. Connors did it out.

SPEAKER_09 2:49

This is irrefutable evidence that the defendant is lying.

SPEAKER_07 2:54

Special agent Henred EFBI. Hello, Carl. You better get caught. Like they help always wait.

SPEAKER_04 3:02

Somebody fly around the country posing as a pilot who's calling the James Bond of the sky. Hello, Push.

SPEAKER_09 3:08

That is by far the best date I have ever been on.

SPEAKER_04 3:14

Million grams of protein in every four hours. Do you concurve? I concur.

SPEAKER_05 3:18

Dr. Harris. Yes. Do you concur? Concurrent. What?

SPEAKER_07 3:23

I'm sorry to have to tell you instead of five to the checks.

SPEAKER_04 3:28

I'm looking for the church now. Just tell me how much you're not gonna find.

SPEAKER_07 3:32

1.3 million dollars. South America, Australia. What do you want? To apologize. You didn't call to apologize, did you?

SPEAKER_06 3:50

You have no one else to come.

SPEAKER_05 3:53

Looking for your stuff. If you're falling off, it's my job. They keep peeking off their job. It's wondering where are you going today? What are you going today? Don't tell me enough to fly. Simply got two. It's me and not you. Don't bring around the cloud to bring them in a parade. We're gonna let him get away.

SPEAKER_03 4:47

The film had an all-star cast, including Christopher Walken, Martin Sheen, Amy Adams, James Brolin, Jennifer Gardner, Elizabeth Banks, and even a cameo from the real Frank Abnicknell. This blockbuster film introduced a whole new generation to the wonder, glamour, and nostalgia of Pan American World Airways. The film is inspired by the real life story of Frank Abnicknell Jr. and takes place in the early 1960s, where he impersonates a doctor, lawyer, and pilot all before the age of 21. After much success, Frank scams became increasingly more daring as he is chased by the FBI, a classic cat and mouse caper, until his eventual capture in France. Catch Me If You Can was released on December 25th, 2002, earning more than $30 million during its opening weekend in second place finish behind The Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers. The film went on to gross $164 million in North America and over $187 million in foreign markets, with a worldwide total of over $352 million. The film was a financial success, recouping its $52 million budget seven times over. Catch Me If You Can was the 11th highest grossing film of 2002. At the 75th Academy Awards, Christopher Walken was nominated for Best Supporting Actor, and John Williams was nominated for Best Original Scorer. It is important to point out that the film and Mr. Abchnail have had some critics and controversy at the time of the film's release and over the years. In a quote defending the film and Mr. Abacknail, Steven Spielberg stated, quote, I did not make this film about Frank Abignail because of what he did, but because of what he has done with his life in the past 30 years. End quote. Before our interview, I'd like to give a warm welcome to our newest Pan Am Museum volunteer, 16-year-old Michael Gentner of Ohio. Michael is an honor student and incoming junior at Upper Arlington High School and will be assisting us with research and writing. Much like 17-year-old Maddox Henry from Tulsa, Oklahoma, who I mentioned in an earlier episode, Michael is fascinated by Pan Am History and loves what we are doing with this podcast. As a point of personal privilege, I'd like to express how honored I am that the work we are collectively doing at the museum and with this program is certainly reaching young people all around the world, and they in turn are engaged to learn more about the history and people of Pan American World Airways. These young people, not even born yet when the airline ceased operations, are now intrigued and fascinated with the Pan Am story, and that's just incredible. A special thank you to all our young listeners, and a very warm welcome aboard to Michael. Now on to our interview. More than 14,000 financial institutions, corporations, and law enforcement agencies use his fraud preventative programs. In 2004, Mr. Abnknail was selected as the spokesperson for the National Association of Insurance Commissioners and the National Cybersecurity Alliance. He has also written numerous articles and books, including The Art of the Steal, The Real You Guide to Identity Theft, Stealing Your Life, and his most recent book, Scam Me If You Can: Simple Strategies to Outsmart Today's Rip-Off Artists. Mr. Abnicknail refuses to accept payment for any of his government work. Today, the majority of his income is derived from consulting with major corporate clients such as Lexus Nexus, Intuit, and Experian, and his public speaking engagements. Mr. Abnicknail has conducted over 3,000 seminars on identity theft, cybercrime, and fraud worldwide. Today, Mr. Abnchnail is an advisor for Trusana in developing the world's first and only ensured authentication platform eliminating the use of passwords. We were honored to have him as our keynote speaker at the Pan Am Museum's 2018 annual fundraising gala. For more information on how you can protect yourself from scams and con artists, please visit his website, www.abniknail.com. There is a link in the episode description. Thank you for joining us on the Pan Am Podcaster.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Oh, it's my pleasure to be with you today. Thanks very much for having me.

SPEAKER_03 10:32

So Pan Am is still capturing the public's imagination, even 30 years after the airline has ceased operations. And you have a very interesting affiliation with the airline. Why don't we talk about Pan Am in uh pop culture and also your personal story with Pan Am?

SPEAKER_01 10:55

Yeah, I think Pan Am is still very popular with people because it was truly an amazing airline. It was what airlines were meant to be. It was a classy airline. The people that ran the airline or worked in the airline were very sophisticated, classy people. They had the best food, they had the best service. And it was just what airlines meant to be. And I think that Steven Spielberg knew that. And he wanted to portray that image in the movie about what airline travel used to be like. And for someone like me who spends his life traveling every week on planes, uh, it's just a world of difference when I was 26 years old in the experiences of Pan Am than I am today at 73 years old in the experience of the airlines I fly on today.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

Yeah, it's it's certainly different today. So let's talk about your story. Uh, you have a very interesting background, and it's not every day that I get to talk to somebody that a Hollywood movie was made, made after. And in your case, Leonardo DiCaprio played you. I did talk to Al Topping, who uh is featured in episode four, and I made the same joke to him uh because James Earl Jones played him in a movie. So today that I get to talk to somebody that uh gets a movie made about them. Um so let's talk about Catch Me If You Can, uh, the book and the movie, because there are some similarities to uh what uh really happened in your story and what really happened in the movie, because you know, Hollywood, they take uh creative liberty sometimes. So tell us a little bit about your background.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

And a little bit about before we start, I always remind people I didn't write Catch Me If You Can. It was written by a police reporter who had written a story about me back in the late 70s and the things I had done for a magazine. Then he decided to take it a step further and write a book. Uh, and I thought that when they approached me about putting my name on the book, and I was very young at the time, and they offered me $50,000 to have my name on the book. Uh, I said the only way I would do that if they put a disclaimer in the book that all events, places, names have been changed, because I felt that the writer had exaggerated a lot of the things I did. He took what something I may have done and then blew it up to something much bigger than it really was. Then, of course, Hollywood came along and Hollywood said, Oh, I don't really like this. So Hollywood changed it around. Then they made a television series, White Collar. They based it on me, then they made me an art thief, and I don't know anything about art. Then Broadway came along, said, I'm gonna make this into a musical. And though it was great and the music and the entertainment was great, they changed the host story around. And so sometimes I wonder what did I really do and what I didn't do. But the truth of the matter is very simple. I ran away from a broken home when I was 16 years old. A lot of kids in the 1960s ran away, but they got into drugs and hate Ashbury and the hippie scene. And I ended up on the streets of New York, and I quickly realized I had to learn how to uh survive. And the only asset I had is I looked a lot older than 16. Everyone took me for being in my 20s. And so I altered my driver's license, which was back then it had no photo on it, it was a New York driver's license. And I changed my birth date from 1948 to 1938, it made me 10 years older or 26. And I had a checking account that I'd had that my father had set up for me when I worked in his store. And I had a couple of hundred dollars in it. So I started to write checks, and it was very difficult. I'd walk into a bank and the teller'd say, You don't have an account here. I can't cash your check. Uh, sometimes they'd send me over to a bank officer at a desk, and he or she would maybe take say, okay, I'll cash it or I won't cash it. And uh, I was walking down 42nd Street one day and I saw this airline crew come out of a hotel. And I thought to myself, wow, if I could get one of these uniforms and then walk in the bank as a pilot on a layover, how impressive would that be? And the credibility of that. And this is a court back before ATMs and all of that. So I kept thinking about it and I walked up 42nd a little a little further to 42nd in Park, and I came to the Pan Am building. And I thought, wow, what a perfect airline to use to travel all over the world. So the next day I placed a phone call to the executive corporate offices of Pan Am. And to be honest, I was 16, I had no idea what I was going to say. When the switchboard answered, I asked if I could speak to someone in the purchasing department. And this clerk came on and I said, Yeah, my name's John Black. I'm a co-pilot with the company based out of San Francisco, been with the company about seven years, never had anything like this come up before. Or what's the problem? Well, we flew a trip in here yesterday, and we're going out later today. And I sent my uniform out through the hotel yesterday to have it dry clean. Now the hotel and the cleaner say they can't find it. Well, don't you have a spare uniform? Uh uh back in San Francisco, but I would never get it here for my flight. Well, hold on, I'll be right back. And he came back and told me exactly where to go, what to do, what was necessary to get the uniform. So I went down to what was called the well-built uniform company and I filled out the forms. And I remember laughing because the guy said, What's your employee number? I had no idea what how many numbers, but the form had the boxes. So I just made up numbers to fit in the boxes. And he gave me, uh, I ended up getting the uniform. Now the only problem was there were no wings and there was no emblem, it was just a uniform with the three strolled stripes of the co-pilot. So I then started to think about how do I get that? So I did a little research and I realized that Pan Am had a hanger out at Hangar 14 or something out of JFK, and they had a department called the Stores Department, and that's where you got your wings and your hat emblem. So I went out to JFK and I saw there was a guard shack out front, and I watched people going through. And if they were in uniform, the guard kind of just let them go through. So I went and got a raincoat and I put it over my shoulder and I took the hat and put it under my arm and I walked right in. Nobody asked me anything. And then I asked where the stores department was, and then I went over to this little room with a little open half door, and the guy behind there, I said, Hey, I had lost my wings and my emblem. And he said, No problem. And he gave me the new wings and emblem. I don't remember if I had to pay something for it or give him a number. And then I had the uniform. And then it was night and day. I walked in the bank, nobody ever questioned, nobody ever said no. All they saw was the uniform. And I realized the power of that uniform and what you could could get away with. And so it started out as more of a survival, then it became a challenge, and then you have people chasing you. So then it becomes a challenge of how do I stay ahead of the people chasing me. But I don't, I think I never lost sight of the fact that I was going to get caught sooner or later. And I always remind people I was not a genius. Well, I was a very creative person, but I also was very young. I was an adolescent. So I had no fear of being caught. I had no fear of consequences. I didn't premeditate. I didn't sit out in front of the bank and say, I'm going to go in and cash this $500 check. Uh, if they say this, then I'll do this. If they do this, I'll do this. I just went in and did it. Everything was ad-lib. And I think that's mainly why I got away with it. I always believed had I been older, 22, 23, I would have rationalized that this was would never work. But that's how I did it. And everything leads to something else. So there's a perfect scene in the movie where I'm at the JFK and JFK at the at the TWA terminal, the old one where they filmed it. And I walk up to the TWA ticket counter, and that's exactly how it happened.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

I yes. Let's take a quick listen to that scene from the movie.

SPEAKER_08 19:43

Hello.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

Hi, are you deadheading?

SPEAKER_08 19:46

What?

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Are you my deadhead to Miami?

SPEAKER_08 19:52

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

You're a little late, but the jump seat is open.

SPEAKER_09 20:03

It's been a while since I've done this. Which one's the jump seat again?

SPEAKER_05 20:08

Have a nice flight.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

Are you in my deadhead? Frank? Captain Oliver? John Larkin, the co-pilot? Fred Tully, flight engineer.

SPEAKER_07 20:20

Frank Taylor, Pan Am. Thanks for giving me a lift, boys. Go ahead and take a seat, Frank. We're about to push. What kind of equipment are you on? DC 8? Uh 707. You turning around on the red eye? Uh I'm jumping puddles for the next few months trying to earn my keep running leapfrogs for the weak and weary. No shame in that. We all did it.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

Have a seat.

SPEAKER_07 20:48

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Would you like a drink after takeoff?

SPEAKER_07 20:53

Milk. 80 knots. Check. V1, rotate. V2, positive rate. Gear up.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

I did end up making an ID card, and I should probably go back and tell you that part of it. Um, I realized the uniform was great for cashing checks, but I needed an ID card. So I basically found out who manufactured all most of the airline ID cards. And I made an appointment saying I was a purchasing agent for a major airline and we were going to switch to a more formal ID. And I went to the company and basically spoke to the guy, and he explained to me how everything worked. And he said, I said, Well, could you demonstrate it for me? And he said, Fine. So he made up a card for me, but it had no airline's name on it. Just had a blue border at the top, had my picture and the information I'd give him. And so I left and I thought to myself, but this isn't very good because it's already sealed in plastic, it's not no name. On it. And as I'm walking by a hobby shop, I go in and I buy a model of an airline Pan Am cargo jet. And I take it back and I open the box and I throw all the parts out. And they're at the bottom of the box with the decals that went on the model. So I took the Pan Am globe that would have gone on the tail, put it up at the left-hand corner of the card. And then the Pan Am and the special styling of graphics that would have gone on the wing, and I put it up on the top of the card and had the logo, and it looked like a perfect Pan Am identification card. I didn't know what the real one looked like, but for anybody seeing it, they would have said it wasn't Pan Am. It looked very official. When I went to the TWA ticket counter, I was simply buying a ticket, but I was in the pilot's uniform. And the woman at the agent said to me, Are you riding or are you buying? Beg your pardon? Are you riding the jump seat or are you purchasing a ticket? I said, Oh no, I could ride the jump seat. So I ended up riding the jump seat. And then I realized that I could fly all over the country just riding in the jump seat of other airlines. And I was smart enough never to get on a pan Am plane. One, I knew they wouldn't, they'd recognize the idea as being phony. Two, they ask you a lot of questions if you're sitting in the cockpit. You know, well, uh, you're based in San Francisco, you know so-and-so, who's the chief pilot there, all those things. I, or maybe they'd ask me to do something and I don't want to be put in that. So most of the time I fly on everyone else. And to be honest with you, no one wants to ride in the jump seat because it's not a comfortable place to be. So, you know, you'd go on and you'd sit down, and then after a minute, the flight attendant comes say, I got a seat back and coach if you want to go back there. And I always just said, Oh, that'd be great. And I would just go back. So everything I did, I just fell into place. I didn't, I didn't start out saying, I'm gonna pose as a pilot, get on planes, and fly all over the world. I mean, I just picked up on these things, and that's what I meant. I was very much an opportunist at a young age, and I was very creative, and I saw those opportunities, took advantage of them.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

And in the 1970s, you took what you've learned as a con artist and you turned it into good. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Yeah, so I ended up being arrested in France and I was charged with forgery, and I was convicted and sent to French prison. Uh, then I was extradited from France when my sentence was over to Sweden, where I was convicted of forgery and sent to prison. And when my sentence was over in Sweden, I was returned to the authorities in the United States, where eventually a US federal judge sentenced me to 12 years in federal prison and 10 years for forged checks, two years for escape. Uh, and after serving about four years in the American prison system, the federal government would suggested that they would take me out of prison on the condition I go to work for an agency of the federal government for the remainder of my sentence or until I completed my parole. Again, I have to say, and with all honesty, I was the same person who went into prison that came out of prison. Prison didn't rehabilitate me. I didn't see the light and say, I'm a changed person. Again, the opportunist said, Oh, you will? Ah, that's a way to get out of prison. So I took it more as an opportunity to get out of prison. And I didn't know what agency, but I ended up that with the FBI and basically teaching at the FBI Academy. And I think what it was is I was surrounded by just incredible people who loved their country. They were ethical people. Uh, and some of that kind of just wore off on me. So when uh, and of course, the government didn't pay me any money. So the whole thing was you do this, you do it for free, you have to go find a job and support yourself. You will have a parole officer you report to, but you're actually parole to the FBI. So I had a parole officer. I my first job was at a pizza inn and uh in Houston, Texas. And that's where FBI had their white-collar crime division. So that's where they sent me. I'd never been to Texas before. And I went down there and basically got a job at Pizza Inn, started making pizzas, and then they made me an assistant manager. And so I would close up shop, open shop, I would hire people, I would take the money to the night box every night, make the deposit. So they, you know, I was a clean-cut guy, was well spoken. So they said, you know, we'd like to put you in our management training program. I said, Oh, that'd be great. So they did some background check, found out about my record, and they fired me. So then I got a job driving a bus from downtown Houston out to the airport for a company called AirHost. And they decided to make me a supervisor, and they found out about my record, and they fired me. So then I got a job at a big grocery store as a night stalker, stocking on the midnight to eight shift. It was a 24-hour store. And they liked, you know, again, I was well dressed, well presented. So they made me the night manager. And I handled the money, I handled the was only had one or two checkers, but all the stalkers. And they decided to put me in a management training program. And I kept saying, you know, I really don't want to do that. Uh, I'm working here, union scale. I don't want to get in a manager. No, no, no, you need to be in our training program. They found out about my record and they fired me. So I said to my parole officer, look, uh my name is not Smith or Jones. It's Abignal. And anybody with that name is actually related to me, if they live in the United States somehow. I can't hide what I did. It keeps coming back. I said, So I want to ask you this: if I can train federal law enforcement officers and teach them things that they don't even know, why couldn't I do the same thing with banks and corporations and other government agencies and get paid to do it? So he said, Well, if you feel you can do that, uh, you know, I'll give you the opportunity to do it. You'll have to work that out on your own. So I would go to banks and simply say to the bank, look, I'd like to come in for an hour, put on a presentation to your tellers, how to spot counterfeit money, forge checks, etc., short change artists. But at the end of the presentation, if you feel I what I told them you already knew or it wasn't worth it, then you don't need to pay me. If you think it's worth it, I'd like you to pay me $500. And everything from then was just one bank telling another bank about me, another bank. And at first I couldn't travel out of the state of Texas, so I could only accept invitations to speak at banks in Texas. Then retailers like Target started to bring me into Target to speak to the lost prevention people. And that's how I started. Today I've been teaching at the FBI Academy for 46 years. I still teach there today. I have educated two generations of FBI agents. I have worked for 65% of the Fortune 500 companies in America. I have designed security features and technology that today are used by banks around the world and on most negotiable instruments printed here and abroad. And but the most important thing is that again, I wasn't really that change person until I met my wife. And when I met her, I didn't have a dime to my name. And eventually I told her who I was, my background, and I told her I might very much loved her and wanted to continue to see her. She believed in me, she trusted me. And against the wishes of her parents, she married me. And I've been married to my wife for 46 years. She gave me three wonderful sons. My oldest boy is an FBI agent, been in the Bureau 17 years. He's the unit chief over the Bureau's Crisis Negotiations Unit. Three successful sons, seven grandchildren, and she turned my life around. Not that I saw the light, not that prison rehabilitated me, not that I was born again. She trusted me and believed in me, and she gave me a wonderful family, and she's what turned my life around uh completely.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

That's a great story. Thank you for sharing with us. Um, let's get back to catch me if you can for a moment, and then we can talk about your latest book. Um so it's my understanding that the movie is very different than your life. And in particular, the Christopher Watkins character is very different than how your father was. Is there anything you want to point out the differences between your real life and this Hollywood blockbuster emotion picture?

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Yeah, and I think that Steven Spielberg has told me many times, I made the movie about your life because I love the redemption side of your story. And he wanted the world to know that. Um, you know, when I watched a movie, and I honestly have only seen the movie twice. When I watched the movie, you know, in real life, I had two brothers and a sister. He portrayed me as an only child. In real life, um, my mother never remarried. Um, but in the movie, she marries someone and there's a little girl at Christmas time in the window. In real life, um, I I never saw my father or my mother once I had run away. In the movie, he had me going back, keep speaking to my father. Uh, that didn't happen. The only thing I did with my parents is I would send them postcards and say, I'm traveling around Europe, I'm living in these youth hostels, and I'm hitchhiking my way around Europe, which was very popular in the 70s with young people. And but my parents had no way of writing back to me. And the only reason I did that is I didn't want my parents to think I was dead in the gutter somewhere. So I was trying to tell them I was fine, but this is what I was doing. But in the movie, he had me going back to see my father. Now, of all the things in the movie, you know, for exact, for example, I didn't escape through the toilet of the plane. My wife looked at me and said, You went down the toilet. I said, No. I escaped off the hatch of the back of the plane where they serve and bring the food onto the aircraft. And there was no second thought. And the movie had a scene where I go back to the TWA terminal and it comes and follows me, and the agent says to me, you know, you better not do this. That didn't happen once once I did it. But Spielberg said, I wanted to show the audience that you had made up your mind to go straight and do the right, the right thing. But in real life, that didn't, that really didn't happen. But the only thing I never understood about the whole movie, and always he would never answer this question for me, is I said, I really didn't understand how you portrayed my father, because you know, my father was probably the most honest man you ever wanted to meet. You know, he didn't have credit cards because he believed if you couldn't afford it, you shouldn't be buying it. And, you know, my father lost his business. He had problems with the attacks because his brother, who was his accountant, didn't pay the taxes and he lost his business. But my father was an extremely honorable man and he had no problem, you know, going from a man that was very successful to a man who had nothing. He felt it was, you know, when I used to say to him, I don't know how you drive this old car when you used to have this really nice car and you used to say your car doesn't make who you are. And so I don't know why he felt he needed to portray my father as this somewhat of a con man himself. And my father would have never condoned the things I was doing if he knew I was doing them. But when I've asked him why he did that, he never told me. So I don't know why Hollywood, you know, changes things around to fit their the way they want to tell the story.

SPEAKER_03 34:12

We're gonna take a quick break with a Pan Am commercial from 1970.

SPEAKER_04 34:19

Yesterday, it was just a dream. Today it's for real. Pan M introduces the flame with a spiral staircase in first class. The flame with the two wide aisles. The three widescreen movies and comments. Tomorrow, never like this. Pan Am has the only 747 flyer. And now you can take one from the US to Europe or the Caribbean at no extra fare. For reservations, call your Pan Am Travel agent or call Pan Am.

SPEAKER_03 35:16

Welcome back to our interview with Frank Abdicnail. Let's talk about your latest book, Scam Me If You Can. A lot of our listeners may be on guard for lots of different scams, email scams, phone scams, identity theft, and so forth. Can you give us some tips on how they can protect their identity and their credit cards and bank accounts?

SPEAKER_01 35:42

Absolutely. Let me explain a couple of things. One, most of my career, I've all of the books I've written, The Art of the Steel, Stealing Your Life, all of those books have been related to corporations, financial institutions. And I've spent most of my life teaching about financial crimes and cybercrime. And uh most of it were all business related. About five years ago, AARP, which is the largest organization in the world with 38 million members, uh, these are people 50 and older, seniors, they hired me to help them develop educational materials and training material to make people aware of all the scams that were going on, which was great timing because then COVID happened and those scams went up 350%. So one of the things they did is they commissioned me to write a book. And they uh told me that we want in the book every scam there is. We want scams against millennials, scams against seniors, investment scam, crypto scams, currency scams, insurance scams. We want every scam. We want you to explain how they work and how people should protect themselves from it. And of course, I wrote the book, the publisher named it Scam Me If You Can, because it was close to Catch Me If You Can. But all the royalties in the advance of the book goes to ARP. It's basically their book. But I learned two things doing all of that. One, I realized first of all, how much consumers lose. About $48 billion a year is lost to seniors with all kinds of uh scams from sweepstakes grandparents' scam, IRS scams, uh, you name it, they lose their home, they lose their pension, veterans who lose their veterans' pay, who fall for these romance scams and et cetera. But I also realized that every day in America, every single day, seven days a week, 10,000 Americans turn 65 years of age. And so it's what became a real concern for me when writing the book. But I quickly realized when I finished the book, two major things. One, millennials are scammed more often than seniors, but seniors lose more money because they have more money to lose. But as I looked at all these scams, I realized at the end of the book that no matter how sophisticated the scam was, no matter how amateur the scam was, there were two red flags. And if the red flag didn't pop up, the scam would not work. And the first red flag was at some point, I have to ask you for money. But the money has to be immediate. You have to give me a credit card over the phone, you have to give me a bank account over the phone, you have to get on your cell phone and stay on the line and go to Walmart and get a green doc card, put the money on it, and then call me and read me the number on the back over the phone. If you had the so far, the grandparent scam, we have your grandson DWI needs to be bailed out. Uh, do you want to post his bail? Yes. Well, you'll have to give me a credit card. Well, look, I'm one block from the police station. Why don't I just walk down there and give you the money? No, no, no, no. You have to give us credit. Those were the red flags. Anytime it was immediate, you had to, you don't know who's on the other end of the device. You didn't solicit the call. You didn't solicit the email. And now they're asking you to give them money immediately. That's a huge red flag. And the other red flag was at some point, I'm going to ask you for information. So in these romance scams, which by the way are about $585 million last year that people lost to romance scams, uh, and they went up tremendously during almost double during COVID. Um, you might meet someone online. A lot of times these guys take a picture of somebody very good looking. If it's young women, they use a military marine or something in uniform and they put their pictures, say, that's me. Whatever the case may be, these scams can go on for like a year. So I might make it find you on the internet. We start talking, we email each other back and forth, we start talking on the telephone together. And I remind people, you're just one of 50 people they're working. So they're working other people, but they come back to you. They never ask you for anything. It's always how you're doing, it's always a nice call, and they build that relationship. I refer to it as a getting you under the ether. They literally put you under ether. And eventually a simple thing may come up, and maybe the woman says, So, Robert, if you only live two states away, how come you haven't come over to see me and made a trip over here? Well, you know, Helen, I've thought about it and I'd love to do it, but I have to have an operation and I don't have any insurance. And if I don't get the operation, I don't even know that I'm gonna make it. Well, how much is the operation? Well, it's about $30,000. Well, you know what? I could give you the money, and that's the red flag. You never met this person, you didn't solicit this person, then they're asking you now, whether it's a year, two years, six months later for money, you need to stop and say, Whoa, I need to know who this person is before I par with any money. But it's so unfortunate, people get so wrapped up in it that even when you say to them, look, this is a scam. I'm showing you in black and white, this is a scam. I'm showing you who the person is, that they're a scam artist. Uh, they still said, oh no, you know, I've got a relationship with that. They're under that ether. And it's very hard to get them away from that. Now, what's interesting to me, back in the 1970s, before anyone knew who I was, there was no book, nothing. I did a number of public service ads for the Department of Justice. They were 30-second ads about protecting your checkbook, protecting your credit cards. Those ads ran for years on TV because they were well done, they were well filmed. Then in the 1980s, after the book came out, I did millions of bank statement stuffers for a company called Treaty Oaks Press that did most of the printing of bank statement stuffers for the major banks. And they did this design that had a picture of me, said, take a tip from a retired master forger, and we give a little bit about me, and then the bank's logo. And on the other side, 10 tips about protecting your credit cards, et cetera. Then in the 90s, all that went away. No public service ads, no, if you had a bank statement stuff, it was to get a free toaster or selling you something. And so back up a couple of years ago, a bank in Canada contacted me and said, Look, most of our customers are elderly. They're very wealthy, they're very successful, but they are falling for all these scams. We would like you to create four of the most common scams and make a video, three minutes in length, explaining the scam and how it works. And the bank was called Home Equity Bank of Canada. I created those ads. They're on YouTube, they're on my website at abignail.com on the home page. And I tell people all the time if you have a grandparent, you have a neighbor that's elderly, someone you're concerned about, please have them watch this three-minute video about, and once they see it, they will not fall for the scam, but they will understand it. The problem is that people are basically honest, thank God. And because they're honest, they don't have a deceptive mind. So when the caller ID says NYPD, FBI, Medicare, Social Security, they think that's who's calling them. And they don't realize how easy it is to manipulate caller ID. But once you get them to understand that, that's why education is the most powerful tool to fighting crime. And that's why I do have done over 3,000 seminars in my career. Is if you can educate people and say this is how it's done, they're smart enough to say, I understand it, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna fall for it. And that's what I tried to do in the book, uh, scam me, if you can.

SPEAKER_03 43:47

Do you have any tips on how people can protect their identity?

SPEAKER_01 43:51

Yes. First of all, I am not on social media. I've never been on social media. I'm not on LinkedIn, I'm not on Facebook, I'm not on Twitter.

unknown 43:59

I

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Do you believe that's not probably not in my lifetime, but at some time we're going to wake up and realize that that was a very bad mistake. But in the meantime, I remind young people all the time if you tell me on Facebook where you were born and your date of birth, that's 98% of me stealing your identity. Identity thieves use keys and you've given them 98% of the keys. They're all looking for opportunities. There are no criminals looking for challenges. They're only looking for opportunities. So if I search 100 Facebook sites and people have given me phony information with a phony birth date and a phony place of birth, I'm skipping over those people, or they didn't give me that information. But Helen did. Then I'm going after Helen. So I tell people you never want to tell anybody on Facebook where you were born and your date of birth. I tell people you need to shred everything because what you believe is worthless is of great value to somebody else. And there are basically three shredders built in the world. There's a straight shredder that cuts paper straight up and down. Those can easily be put back together in less than an hour. There are crisscross shredders that cut things down to a little rectangular box. They're much better. But at the FBI lab, we use a software called ePuzzler, allows us to put those back together. If we can do it, criminals can do it. So I remind people when you buy a shredder, they're all the same price, and who makes them is irrelevant. It's what type of shredder is it? And you're looking for the words security, micro, cut, shredder. When you use that, that turns paper into confetti about the size of a piece of rice. There's no technology to put that back together. So if you're going to buy the right tool, do the right to do the right thing. Freeze your credit. Up until two years ago, only nine states allowed you to freeze your credit without paying a fee to the three credit bureaus, Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion. The federal government stepped in and said, no, everyone has the right to freeze their credit, and nobody can charge them a fee to do so. And it needs to be a one-time event. So today, all you have to do is go to the Google box and type in, how do I freeze my credit? Once you do it, it's done. It's eligible to anyone 16 years of age or older. Now, once you freeze your credit, nobody can see your credit. Not the government, not the IRS, not your bank, not your insurance company, not your employer without your permission. If you're going to go buy a car this weekend, you want to finance it for three years, you want the bank to the car dealer to get you the best bank rate, you unfreeze it to the car dealer, they get you the best rate, and you freeze back your froze back your credit. So I encourage everyone to freeze their credit. Now, I froze my credit a long time ago, but I also use a credit monitoring service. And I have back since probably the year 2000. And the reason I do is I believe that you take responsibility for yourself. So maybe it costs me $14 a month, but it gives me the power to go to my computer, my laptop, and in minutes bring up all three credit reports on my screen in real time. So I see my credit score at all three credit bureaus at that moment of that day. And I can scroll down through my credit. And if there is an error, like I say to myself, I paid this car off a year ago. I don't have any money on this car. I can fix that. And when I scroll to the bottom of the report, I see all inquiries made against my credit. So whether it's the IRS, whether it's the bank, insurance company, but if I see something suspicious as an inquiry, I can do something about it. So they're also telling me if someone's using my credit, opening an account in my name. So for $14, I like that I take responsibility of my own life and I can look at everything, uh, keep it in order. So I still do that. Um I have never in my life owned a debit card, nor I have three grown sons married with children that don't have a debit card. A long time ago, when finishing one of my books, I asked myself a very simple question: what is the safest form of payment that exists in the United States? And the answer is credit card, not credit debit card, credit card, Visa, MasterCard, American Express, Discover card. Every day of my life, I spend the credit card company's money. I never spend one dime of my personal money. My money sits in a bank account. No one knows where it is because it's exposed to no one. I go to the dry cleaner, give my credit card, go put fuel in my boat, give my credit card. I care the airplane, give my credit card. Now, I will do everything in my power to make sure no one gets my number. But if they do, and tomorrow they charge one million dollars on my credit card, by federal law, my liability is zero. I have no liability. I love to shop online. But if I buy something and it comes broken and the merchant won't take it back, the credit card company protects me. If I buy something on a fictitious line, the credit card company protects me. Every month that I pay my bill, whether I pay the minimum due or I pay the full amount, my credit score goes up and keeps going up. When you use your debit card, every time you use it, you're exposing the money in your account. You could use it 20 times a day for 20 years, but you will not raise your credit score by that much. So in every post-investigation that we have done involving a retail merchant like Target or Home Depot, where there's been a breach, the people say, Oh no, I had a credit card from my bank, a Visa card. So they canceled the card the next day. Two days later, they sent me a new card. That's the last I heard about it. Oh no, I had a debit card off my credit union. It took $3,000 out of my checking account. It took me about two months to get the money back while they were investigating, investigating, had to wait for my money. So it's very simple. If I got my bank statement tomorrow and there were $8,000 in airline tickets on my credit card, I simply call the card cover and say, I didn't buy, I didn't charge these airline tickets. I don't know anything about them. And they're going to tell me, remove that from the balance ode. I may send you an affidavit to sign, but that's the end of it. If it's my debit card, I've got to ask the bank to put $8,000 back into my account. So the bank says, Well, I've got to investigate, can't just give you $8,000. So then you get into taking the time to do it. Now, people say, How do you get cash? I tell my bank I only want an ATM card, not an ATM debit card, just an ATM card. This way I can get cash out of my account anywhere in the world, but I'm protected by the same laws that protect my credit card. And if I already possessed an ATM debit card, I would simply say to my bank, I want to drop down the debit side to $1 so that my exposure is never limited, then more than a dollar. And to those young people who like Zell and Zimbo and all those financial services, I tell them, make sure you back that with a credit card. Do not back that with a debit card, because if you lose your money, which those transactions are treated as cash, you will not get it back. But if you back it with a credit card, you always have the recourse to go back to your credit card company and get your money back. Those are the kind of simple things I do. And to just be aware of all of these things. You know, people say you were the father of social engineering. Well, that's because I called Pan Am and I talked them into giving me the information about the uniform. I didn't even know what social engineering was. And on top of that, uh I only had one form of communication, a telephone. Today there are so many other forms of communication, the ability to social engineer someone. So I tell people social engineering, the best example would be that I ask you on the phone, what's the last four digits of your social security number? So you think to yourself, well, that's okay. Uh 0918. All right, terrific. And by the way, you have a real southern accent. Oh, I was born and raised in Alabama. Oh, really? You know, you kind of sound like you're my age because I'm 38. Oh, no, no, no, I'm I'm 52. Oh, well, you just told them where you were born and your date of birth. That's the first three digits of your Social Security number. If your card was issued before 2013, those three numbers are the formula for the place of birth, date of birth. So I only need two digits I have to run through my computer to make a match. That's social engineering. So again, social engineering you will never defeat with a computer. You will never defeat with AI. There is no technology that can defeat social engineering. You can only defeat it through education. You have to educate people that they're being socially engineered so that when I call the call center at the bank, I can move the call around to where they're giving me information instead of getting information from me, unless someone has taught them at the bank how to recognize that I'm changing a conversation and I'm starting to social engineer them. This is why education is so important.

SPEAKER_03 53:30

Fascinating. Fascinating. So as we wrap up our interview, is there anything that you would like to tell our listeners or any memories you'd like to share about Pan American World Airways?

SPEAKER_01 53:45

Well, I am going to assume that not only do Pan Am people listen to your wonderful podcast, but other airline people as well. And I'd like them to know this. I have traveled now for over 50 years on airlines around the world. I have more than 10 million miles, and I travel every single week on an airline. The airline people have brought me back to my wife and my children for almost 50 years now. And I thank them for that. I'm here because of the wonderful professionalism of the people who fly the planes, the people who service the planes, the serve, the people who work for the airlines. So I think we sometimes forget, because we think of ease of air travel being so easy, that these incredible people and the technology that they use allows me to always make it home to my family safely. And that's quite an amazing thing. And I thank each and every one of the people listening to your podcast for that.

SPEAKER_03 54:47

That's great. Well, thank you so much for your time, sir. I've very much enjoyed reading uh both of your books, and I need to read the rest. And I will also direct people to your website in the episode description of this episode.

SPEAKER_01 55:01

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you very much. Take care. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 55:12

Pan Am was a pioneer in air travel and still stands as one of the most iconic and innovative airlines in aviation history. That legacy lives on at the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York, where you can explore the rich history of the aircraft and individuals at the heart of the company known as the world's most experienced airline. For more information about the Pan Am Museum, check out our website at www.thepanmuseum.org. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. As was once a tagline in one of our commercials, we would greatly appreciate your support to help the Pan Am Museum continue making the going great. You can also support the museum by shopping on our online store for all things Pan Am accessories, apparel, jewelry, books, models, and posters. We want to hear from you. If you have a question for us or want to share your story, our email address is podcast at the Pan Am Museum.org. We're going to close out this episode with the Academy Award nominated theme by John Williams from the 2002 film Catch Me If You Can. As flight crews once said to passengers departing for their destinations around the world, thank you for flying, Pan Am.