SPEAKER_12 0:00

It's mysterious, it's deadly, and it's baffling medical science. Acquired immune deficiency syndrome, once thought to affect only promiscuous homosexual males, AIDS is now spreading in epidemic proportions to other segments of the population.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

If uh the trends continue as they are, I think we can predict that the acquired immune deficiency syndrome is uh is a highly fatal illness likely to remain with us uh for the next decade.

SPEAKER_12 0:37

This is ABC News Nightline, reporting from Washington, Ted Koppel. Good evening. The disease has already claimed more victims than Legionnaire's disease and toxic shock syndrome combined. More than 800 cases nationwide, 300 plus of those fatal. And every day, three more cases are identified, and yet, still, surprisingly few people are familiar with the acquired immune deficiency syndrome, or the acronym by which it's frequently identified, AIDS. The reason for that may lie in part in the character of its most common victims. When AIDS first cropped up about 18 months ago, almost all its victims were homosexual males. Alarming enough to that particular segment of society, but so it first appeared, not threatening to the public at large. But that seems to be changing, and the disease may be spreading. Here's Nightline correspondent Betty Roman.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

When AIDS was first discovered more than two years ago, it was sometimes called the gay plague. That's because virtually all of the victims were homosexual, and many of them wound up with a rare and often deadly form of cancer called Kaposi sarcoma.

SPEAKER_04 1:51

Bill? Hey, this is Roger McFarlane from the Gay Men's Health Crisis. Mm-hmm. Hi, what can I do for you? Yeah, um, I seem to have Kaposi sarcoma.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Hotlines in New York and other cities where the greatest number of people were afflicted began getting about 50 calls a day from worried homosexuals. Today, still, the largest number of victims, 75%, are homosexuals, particularly those with many sexual partners. But several other groups have been affected as well. Fourteen percent are intravenous drug users, five percent are Haitian immigrants, one percent are hemophiliacs, and six percent fall into none of those categories. In addition, twenty children have AIDS-like symptoms. Most of the children have had a parent or close family friend who also had the syndrome. Do you have it too? Yeah. My immune cells are too. So far, 40% of all those who have been afflicted have died. And the Center for Disease Control says that the mortality rate could turn out to be as high as 80%.

SPEAKER_06 3:09

You just heard a report from ABC News on the evening of December 17th, 1982. In this episode, we'll be discussing the AIDS epidemic of the 1980s. Five veteran Pan Am employees, David Henson, Philip Keene, Linda Freyer, Becky Sprecher, and Linda Reynolds will be joining us. They will be talking about their experience during this time period and sharing memories of their friends and coworkers that were lost to this terrible disease. This episode provides a unique and intimate look at how an American corporation, Pan American World Airways, navigated the uncertainty of the AIDS crisis and how affected employees were treated. Please keep in mind that some companies during the 1980s did not support their employees during their illness with HIV AIDS, and those people lost their jobs and healthcare. Pan Am was not among them, and the airline did everything it could to support their employees during this difficult time. December 1st has been designated World AIDS Day since 1988 and is dedicated to raising awareness of AIDS in the world and warning those who have died of the disease. As of 2021, AIDS has claimed the lives of over 40 million people worldwide since the beginning of the epidemic in the early 1980s. An estimated 37 million are living with HIV today. However, it is important to point out that through the advancement of science, HIV is a manageable disease today, with antiviral medications, and most with the disease that are on these medications should be able to have normal lifespans with little complications. However, it should be noted that HIV is still a serious public health issue in lesser developed nations, and getting medications to these areas can be a challenge for the worldwide healthcare community. In recognition of World AIDS Day, the Pan Am Museum Foundation remembers all the family, friends, and co-workers who died of AIDS. We would like to have a moment of silence on this program to honor them. Before we begin our interviews, I would like to make an editorial comment as the host of this podcast. It is important for all of us to remember the countless people that died of AIDS, and they deserve our respect. Compassion should not be a bad word or ever be interpreted as a weakness, as some political leaders profess today. In fact, compassion is a sign of strength, and compassion for our fellow humans should be a cornerstone of our lives. Compassion for the sick, the poor, the homeless, the less fortunate, the ostracized, the marginalized should be the bedrock of our lives. I must admit, I am not a particularly religious person, but since some have used religion as a misguided way to hate and treat others with a lack of compassion and respect, I think it appropriate to share a Bible verse in this episode. From John 15, 12, quote, this is my commandment, love each other as I have loved you, end quote. Today is a good day for all of us to take a moment and remember what we're grateful for. Hold those special to us close and remember to cherish every moment because we do not know what tomorrow holds. Take a moment and call an old friend or a lonely neighbor. Send someone you're thinking about an old-fashioned card in the mail. Smile at someone on the street. Sometimes it's the little things that mean the most to people. Much like the AIDS epidemic 40 years ago and the recent COVID-19 pandemic, tomorrow is never guaranteed and our lives can change in an instant. Thank you for listening. Now on to our interview with Linda Reynolds, David Hinson, and Becky Sprecker. Welcome to this special episode of the Pantiam Podcast. Uh Becky, welcome back. You uh were featured in episode seven. Linda Reynolds, uh, welcome. Linda is responsible for the library of training videos that we have on our YouTube channel. And the great David Henson. Uh, welcome back. David will be featured in an episode about national airlines. And also David is going through his archives and he is going to be sending the museum some of his training tapes. So we'll have even more of these uh great training videos. In this episode, we are marking World AIDS Day, and we are going to be talking about the AIDS epidemic in the 1980s at Pan Am. Uh Becky, why don't we begin with you and talk about uh when males started becoming flight attendants again?

SPEAKER_10 8:21

Well, um the the brief history of it is that they were hired originally to work on Pan Am's planes. Um, when Jupp was styling the first flying boats uh back in the um early early 30s. He um he styled them in a nautical manner after sort of the great ocean liners and using all these nautical themes and vernacular. And that is indeed why the airline industry still uses those terms today. Um the uh stewards were working those flights and it fit in, the term steward fit in with kind of the ocean liner theme. Now, TWA and Americans started hiring stewardesses in the 30s, and Pan Am was a little late to that. They didn't start hiring their first stewardesses until around 1944 when there was a shortage of men due to uh World War II. And then by the late 50s and 60s, they were hiring almost exclusively women. And we all know that in the madmen era, all of the airlines began marketing the stewardesses. And um I think that the most difficult or the most odious, I think, of those campaigns, I'm sorry to say was with national airlines when it was hi, I'm so-and-so fly me. But those were the days. That's what that's what the mindset was. That was the zeitgeist. But with all of this press and all of these uh kind of um negative images where the girls were presented as subservient and unintelligent, the term stewardess came to have a negative connotation, even though it's historically more correct. And it kind of ruffled the stewardess's feathers. Um, so they insisted that they wanted to be called flight attendants. And simultaneously, the civil rights era and the women's movement inspired the stewardesses to bring lawsuits that demanded better working conditions and more equal uh treatment, such as being able to marry and have children without having to give up their jobs. So it wasn't long before the men figured out that they were being discriminated against. And so one of them, uh Mr. Diaz, uh, decided to bring a suit against Pan Am.

SPEAKER_06 10:50

And that went all the way to the Supreme Court, correct?

SPEAKER_10 10:52

Well, um, he it did, and what happened was uh Mr. Diaz uh he won the right to be interviewed by Pan Am. And uh, you know, it was interesting that the airline argued that a woman's touch was needed to make flying as pleasurable as possible. So Mr. Diaz won the right to be interviewed, Pan Am, but he was not ultimately hired. The court upheld Pan Am's argument that he did not meet the other criteria that was used for selecting their employees. So at that point, that opened the door and uh the guys began to apply. And this would have been in March of 1973 when they were coming to Miami for training.

SPEAKER_06 11:44

So now uh Pan Am loses in court. Uh, Supreme Court rules that males can now become flight attendants. Unfortunately, for Mr. Diaz, uh, he won this landmark case, but he was too old when it was time for him to interview with Pan Am. So he was never hired. So let's talk about the early 70s and how uh males coming back to the flight attendant roles uh kind of changed the industry.

SPEAKER_10 12:12

Well, yes, it did. And um, I would say made everything much more fun and much more vibrant than it would have been otherwise.

SPEAKER_07 12:23

I would I would agree with that. It brought it brought an entirely new element into the cabin. And the the male flight attendants were young and fun. And yeah, I it was such a joy to have them there, quite frankly.

SPEAKER_06 12:41

David, when were you hired by National Airlines? 1977. And why did you want to become a flight attendant?

SPEAKER_05 12:48

Well, for several reasons. One, um, as a child, I would look up in the sky in my little hometown in Tennessee and see a plane fly over. And I thought, well, I wonder where that plane's going. And I would love to be on that plane. And I thought, what could I do? And they don't hire men to be at the time stewardesses. So I thought, what could I do to fly? And sure enough, in 1976, I was studying at the University of Tennessee, and I wanted to go on spring break. I went down for an interview with Nashton, and they hired me that day, and I went to work.

SPEAKER_06 13:24

And Linda, what was your experience uh flying as a flight attendant in the 70s, now having to fly with males?

SPEAKER_07 13:33

Oh, I thought it was great. As I said, I think they brought a whole new level of fun and vibrancy into the cabin. I enjoyed having them around. They were just fun. And um just it brought a whole new level of paying attention to certain things. And it turned out that many of them were gay, not all, but many of them were gay, and and it it holds true to that um uh that uh feeling that gays are always so good at design and at putting colors together and at making things look good because and they did that. I would let them dress me any day. Honestly, honestly, or decorate my house. You know, it was it was hilarious. It was absolutely hilarious, but I truly enjoyed so many of the of the male flight attendants that came on board and became good friends with quite a few of them.

SPEAKER_10 14:39

You know, I'd like to echo what Linda is saying here because um these guys, particularly the gay ones, were the best office husband you could you could imagine. They could you could go out dancing together. In some parts of the world that we went to, it wasn't safe for for women to go out, you know, by themselves and to have, you know, the guys around, and they were good dancers, and we could go dancing together, and then the next day you could they would take you out shopping and tell you what looked good on you and what didn't. Exactly.

SPEAKER_07 15:12

Exactly. It was wonderful. It was like having a really good friend with taste.

SPEAKER_06 15:20

And this is, you know, in the early days of the gay rights movement. Uh, the Stonewall riots was in June of 1969 at the Stonewall Inn in Greenwich Village neighborhood of Lower Manhattan in New York City. And this is in the mid to late 1970s that you you're talking about. So it's kind of in the early days of a gay rights movement. That's correct.

SPEAKER_10 15:43

They were they found a very tolerant workplace at Pan Am. We were so thrilled that they were there. And we all made friends with each other. And because our trips were so long and they involved long night flights, we had a chance to get to know one another on the jump seats. And you'd get into these long conversations about your lives. And um, particularly the gay guys, you know, we heard the same story over and over again about how they sensed this when they were growing up and, you know, or at some point and they didn't want to hurt their families, and so they gravitated to the larger cities, and you know, they just didn't have a place, they weren't out in the sunlight. And at Pan Am, they could be right, and so it was it was wonderful for them. And I don't want to ignore the straight guys here, but we are talking about World AIDS Day. So just thought I would add that.

SPEAKER_07 16:43

And I think that I think that's true. Um, it was a very tolerant workplace, it was one that embraced all types of people. Um, it was very diverse. I mean, not just whether um it was male or female, but also there was an arousal of awareness of color and that we could embrace people of all different cultures, of all different skin colors. And I think that's one of the things that I most appreciated of Pan Am is that it had such a diverse and interesting workforce.

SPEAKER_06 17:24

And that's very progressive at this time because some of the other airlines and American corporations were not very inclusive and they were very resistant to a lot of this change.

SPEAKER_10 17:36

Yes, I would say that. I think we were global before anybody knew what that was.

SPEAKER_06 17:40

All three of you made many friends throughout the world and throughout the company. And then the 1980s arrived and this mysterious disease started popping up. Can you, the three of you, kind of walk through the early days and the early stories that you started hearing and, you know, perhaps some of the fear that some of your coworkers shared with you uh during the early days of the epidemic?

SPEAKER_07 18:05

I'd like to preface that by saying that I I half the time could not tell. And and being gay was still very much in the closet um in most circumstances, uh certainly outside of Pan Am. And half the time I had no idea whether somebody was or was not, I would have to ask my gay friends, and uh you know, they would educate me. It was hilarious, actually. Um and then when the AIDS epidemic started, um, I think there was a wave of fear that went through the airline um because we did have so many gay members. And I think that it nobody was quite sure how to handle it. Um I think more than anything else, I don't think we were afraid of being on an airplane with them sitting next to them, anything like that. I think we were intelligent enough to know that it was a disease that was being passed by other means. And but there were so many people in the in the US and around the world who wouldn't even who couldn't even come within 10 feet of a gay person for fear that somehow they would be contaminated or catch this terrible disease that was going around. People didn't know how to handle it. And um, you know, you you always want to think that you're going to be you're going to be great at your job. And if there is an emergency and you have to give somebody CPR, for instance, that you would do that. And yet there were responders and flight attendants and anybody who um might encounter an occasion where they might have to use CPR that told me they would walk away. And I thought, how how in the world could you do that to another human being? And I I just don't, I just don't get it. Um and and it was, I think it was just difficult um for the general population to understand because they had not had that exposure to to gays in general, and it was considered at that time to be a gay disease. And that gave them all the more reason to isolate and ignore what was going on around them or uh and and to segregate uh that section of society. And um some of the behaviors that existed in the in the early 80s um by our fellow human beings are reprehensible, in my opinion. Um but does that help answer the question?

SPEAKER_06 20:56

Yes. David, not to put you on the spot, you've been rather quiet. Would you like to add something about what it was like living through this time period?

SPEAKER_05 21:07

Sure. Well, you know, I remember uh the rumor as it was back then that um, you know, the first person that they said brought AIDS to the United States was a French-Canadian flight attendant. And they know they dubbed that patient patient zero because he was the first person known to have AIDS, and he's the one who started it. But later through blood work, they found that that was not true. But because that was the rumor going around back then, people just thought that flight attendants were the ones spreading HIV. Right. And uh which in reality today, and I even thought the same thing back then because that's all we heard. That was the rumor we heard, and we didn't know any better. And the male flight attendants pretty much knew who was HIV positive and uh who was. Or trying to take the drugs at the time or go through this process. And you just accepted that then, if they were a friend, which I had many friends that passed away from HIV. And you helped them to get through it the best you could. And I never remember one time Pan Am ever turning on any employee that was known to be HIV. In fact, they did everything everything they could to help that employee.

SPEAKER_08 22:32

Right.

SPEAKER_05 22:33

And it helped all the male flight attendants in, knowing that if something did happen, uh you were backed by your company. And there were times, even then, if I don't know if y'all remember, but then there was a large outbreak of AIDS in the in Haiti. And of course, we had a flight that went to Port-au-Prince from Miami and on to Santo Domingo. And I just remember the fear that some of the flight attendants had working those trips, and they would wear gloves at the time to pick up all the meal trays, right? Which I had not seen until COVID. And so, but then that eased up even. And I just I don't remember anything that was not um that was negative from Pan Am regarding anyone who was HIV, only positive things.

SPEAKER_06 23:26

We have many of our listeners that are younger and may not understand what transpired during this time period. You mentioned that uh some of the male flight attendants knew uh which of their co-workers had HIV and which did not, and they were starting to take uh experimental drugs. Can you uh elaborate a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_05 23:50

Well, the gay the gay community among flight attendants was very close. It was a close-knit uh community. And we hung out together when we weren't working. Uh, everyone knew just about everyone that was a male flight attendant that flew, at least at your base where you were based, and and probably most all the other bases. And you would just, when someone had gone and gotten tested, they would tell you that they had tested positive, just so you would know, uh, to help protect you as well. And you just sort of it became sort of like a a little community of you just knew who was HIV positive, and you always thought you were. I went for years thinking, okay, I'm probably HIV positive, only because it was a uh gay flight attendant disease, is what it was. And you just sort of went through not knowing, and I can remember many times when I'd get off a trip, I would go to my doctor in Miami and and get tested. And I would just literally be paranoid, waiting on that test to come back, not knowing. But you did that because every time you flew with another male that said, you know, I had a night sweat last night, or I did this. What do you think? And I said, Well, you know, I I had a night sweat too, and you would it would just be your nerves working you to no end that you just everyone thought they were gonna get um HIV, become HIV prostitute.

SPEAKER_07 25:19

Well, and I think it's important too, um David, to to recognize that at that time, if you got AIDS, it was a death sentence. Um it was a death sentence, and there was there was the fear was palpable. Um certainly the awareness of the within the Pan Am community, the awareness in the gay community was, as you said, they were very tight, they knew each other, um, they communicated things to each other. And I think so there was an awareness of of HIV or or this this gay disease, as they called it at the time, um, long before the rest of us really were aware. And they were paying attention and so and communicating with each other. And then we as flight attendants who were not um members of that community, we gradually became aware of it. The uh the the flight attendants, the male flight attendants shared um their knowledge, their fears, their um what they were doing for protection. I can remember more than one telling me that it had certainly um put a kiosh on his lifestyle.

SPEAKER_05 26:37

So it did. It it you you just stopped. Right. You actually literally stopped being gay. Right, right. And if you want to put it that way.

SPEAKER_07 26:46

And then, you know, and I think that the flight attendants that I know, um, the female flight attendants were supportive and eager to know and eager to help in any way that they could. And how do we how do we combat as it finally became known that it was spread through um through human secretions of one sort or another, um, as we became aware of these facts, it was how do we communicate this to the world? How do we how do we make people understand? You look at uh, and and the majority of the American people had had just not had enough contact with the gay community, had not been close enough to them, had not had the exposure to be able to then embrace and help. Instead, they they blocked them out, they were scared to death. Um, if you look at a young man, not a flight attendant, but a young man named Ryan White, I just I I remember it so well, who was not allowed to go to school. He was a hemophiliac and had contracted AIDS through um through a blood transfusion. And there was ultimate eventually a community that embraced him, took him in, let him go to school. But he went, you look at what he went through, and he became quite an advocate um for AIDS. And it it was just heartbreaking, actually, the the division that it caused within the nation. And um, as as David said, he lost many friends to AIDS, and and so did I. And it it it's just it was just heartbreaking until they finally started being able to identify the AIDS virus. And that didn't happen until what, 1985. So the virus showed up in 1981, and there was no test for AIDS until at least 1985. And so so many, um, so many people were wandering around going, what do I do? I know one flight attendant, a good friend of mine, who had had a relationship um with a with a guy who was actually bi. And so she lived in fear for quite a number of years that she might have contracted it because he eventually did die of the disease. But um, you know, you you have that that underlying fear, and basically all you can do is try to muscle your way through it and um and come out on the other side.

SPEAKER_06 29:38

Becky, you have an interesting story that you've you've shared with me previously about your brother who was a doctor in New York City when this was first coming to light.

SPEAKER_10 29:50

Well, he was doing a neurology residency at New York Hospital in 1980. He got there, I think. And so it would have been, Linda mentioned 81. So it was right around in that time frame when uh he said, you know, I was talking to him on the phone, and he said, you know, there's this terrible new disease that we're seeing, and you know, it's absolutely fatal. And we're seeing it um in the population of intravenous drug users and the gay and gay men. And um, you know, it's we call it the wrath of God. Now that he wasn't saying that to be judgmental, um, because as if those people were being punished for their behaviors, but the scientific and medical community um couldn't figure it out. You know, it was severe. It there was a total lack of understanding about its origins and transmissions, and there was no treatment that uh existed. So um, you know, this was a very, very difficult and tragic uh situation that started developing. And and then I noticed I had let quit flying in 1977, but I still had my friends and they were starting to get sick.

SPEAKER_06 31:10

David, I want to zero in on something that you mentioned. You mentioned going to get tested. Uh today, with the the advancement of science, HIV tests are less than 20 minutes. In the late 1990s and early 2000s, when I was younger, uh, you had to wait two weeks and you had to go in and get your blood drawn and then come back in two weeks. And you didn't know in that two-week period, you know, what was going to be the result. Can you talk a little bit about the early tests that you mentioned and almost the trauma around it and the the emotions around that waiting period of not knowing whether or not you have this or not?

SPEAKER_05 31:56

Well, you know, the first actually uh Linda was correct, the first actually screening for HIV didn't come around until like 1985. And I can remember going to, I remember his name, Dr. Feldman, and I would go in and ask to be tested for um get an HIV test, and I would have to make myself go. I was so paranoid about it, and I would go and they would do the test, and then you had to wait on them to call you to come back, and they would not tell you the results over the phone. You had to go into the office for them to talk with you, and because they would talk to you if you were negative, they would talk to you about your habits and what habits you need to change if you're still participating in any of those things. And then, of course, if you were positive, it was different. And I can very much remember walking into the waiting room at the doctor's office because they had called me to come back, and the whole time I'm walking there, I'm thinking, okay, this is this is it, I can accept whatever they tell me. You know, I've had a good life, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I would go in and I remember the lady, the receptionist, and uh, I sat down in the chair and she looked at me, and she could tell I was just about to pass out, probably. And she winked at me. And when she winked at me, I knew it was okay. And I can remember that just as well as I could just see her doing it right now today. And I can remember what she looked like. She winked at me, and sure enough, I was negative. And after that, I had many more tests, and you went through the same horror as you did on any of those tests. And I still get tested with my physical every year now. Even today, I get tested for HIV. It's just part of my physical. And why I don't worry about it like I did then. Uh, it's still in the back of your mind until the doctor calls or you get your test results now, you get them in an email, and you can see it yourself. So it was it was traumatic for any male to go and get tested. And then, of course, if it was positive, then it was a whole different story.

SPEAKER_11 34:06

Right.

SPEAKER_06 34:08

Linda, um, recently uh you and I worked on this training video project on YouTube. And um I I honestly I was not expecting this. Uh, but during our conversations and going through the videos together, um, you mentioned uh a few of the people that you worked closely with uh that passed away from AIDS. And I didn't realize how much of an impact, you know, 30 years later, me, you know, viewing these videos with you um and these beautiful young men that um you know would only die, you know, maybe a year or two after this video was was shot. Um, and it it it really struck me. Um is there anything you want to talk about about uh some of the individuals that you knew and worked with uh that died of this terrible disease?

SPEAKER_08 35:08

It's heartbreaking. Sorry.

SPEAKER_07 35:19

Um it it still affects me. Um and I I think back to you know if if we had if we had known more, you know, it was all at that time it was all so new. Nobody knew what caused it, particularly at the beginning. There wasn't enough, uh there wasn't enough money poured into research. Um political things got in the way, cultural things got in the way. It was a uh a gay man's disease. And so it was in many regards, I don't want to say it was ignored, but it wasn't highly funded really, I think, until it ultimately got into the blood supply. And then it started affecting other people. And then there were there were women that started uh getting it as well. And and only then, when it became uh more present in the general population, did it get the attention that it wanted. Um and I I just I look back and I I I think it's just such a waste of of lives that um all of this had to happen. And I don't think that I think that if funding had been started sooner, it would have saved more lives, it perhaps would have protected us better, but you know, there's there's no telling. Um hindsight is always 2020. Um, but I do, I I do, I I get sad um when I think about the lives that were lost, and it just seems so so horrible. And I think that um there's just a in our country today, there's still a division um between those who those who think that it is fine to accept gays and and and all stripes of people, quite frankly, and those in our society who abhor the idea. And um and and I just I I don't have a lot of tolerance for that, quite frankly. Um and and I'm very vocal about it. So uh this is not this is not a choice that people make. It's not something that they go, oh, gee, I think I want to be gay. This is not a choice. And I people just so many people in our society do not understand that at all. I I I talk to so many of the the flight attendants whose families um disown them. Uh, you know, how how could you how could you as a parent disown your child? I I I'll never get it. I I will never get it. I think it's just one of the saddest things in the world.

SPEAKER_05 38:12

Hey, Linda. Hey, I have uh an uh a photograph. There was uh, you know, in the 80s, people still were sort of shocked to see males on airplanes, believe it or not. You might get one male flight attendant with a whole crew of females, and they'd say, Wow, there's a male flight attendant. Well, I worked several 747 flights where the entire crew was male. And I have a picture of 12 of us all together, and today there are two of us left with all the others dying of AIDS. Yeah, see, it was I look at that picture a lot and I think you know, why why did I live? Why didn't I get um it hurts to go back and look at that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 39:04

Yeah, it's it was it was it was it was hard. It was just hard. And just hard.

SPEAKER_06 39:22

Becky, what's your perspective? You stopped flying in 1977, but you had lifelong friends uh to this day and made many friends that you had that uh died of AIDS in the 80s. What what would you like to add to this discussion?

SPEAKER_10 39:41

Well, um I am very moved by David and Linda's comments. And uh when I I just think of all the the talent that we've missed out on, you know, because these people didn't survive. And uh I just think about how much I learned from them. And um I I think we all remember at Pan Am the Mark Twain quote, you know, that travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness. And many of our people need it sorely on these accounts, and broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all of one's lifetime. And I I think that just reflects the attitude at Pan Am when I said traveling the world with these people and having them as my friends enriched my life immeasurably, and I can only wish that more of them were still here.

SPEAKER_06 40:52

David, let's talk a little bit about being a gay man growing up in the South, joining National Airlines, and then uh joining Pan Am when the merger happened. A lot of our listeners may not understand the challenges that you've gone through that now um, I mean, we've certainly turned a corner, yet there are some future challenges that we're struggling with as a society, both politically and in schools and so forth. But you're already working on the challenge of acceptance of being a gay man, and then all of a sudden, this health crisis where you're being ostracized by some in the public. How did you cope with all of that? And I kind of want you to speak to the younger people that may be listening that don't have to go through what you went through.

SPEAKER_05 41:57

Well, I left my hometown so that I could be myself. I didn't feel like I could be myself where I was living. And I had not accepted the fact that I was gay, and that was the hardest thing was saying, okay, I need to go someplace where I'm away from my family and my friends that know me for who they think I am. And so that's why I chose to go with the airlines because the perception was that you know there were gay people flying. And so I chose that field, and I'm glad I did. And I as time went on, I had very supportive parents and supported friends that accepted me for who I was, which was not always the case with some of my friends. And the the challenge was finally just coming out to myself that it's okay to be who you are, and don't be ashamed of who you are, and to make your life based on who you are. And that's what I did. And I don't worry anymore if people know I'm gay. Uh as far as working with the airline, I can't think of one incident, even when AIDS was so prevalent. I can't think of one time that any passenger or any other crew member did anything to make me feel like I wasn't who I was. I think I've been very lucky. Uh, I've had no one say, Don't serve me because you're gay. I've had no passenger that looked at me and said, I don't want to be served by you. So I feel like that I've been lucky, Tom, in that I've been able to live my life who I am, and I accept who I am. And it goes back to what I think Becky or Linda once said. I didn't choose this. If I had chosen what I'd really like to be, I would like to have been straight and had children. But it just didn't turn out that way. And um, but I'm okay with who I am now. I've got a wonderful partner and um life goes on.

SPEAKER_06 44:05

I've heard many stories um where crew members were surprised, especially with the flight crew. Um, most of these gentlemen that were pilots uh came from a military background and were very conservative. And I hear hear this pop up many times when we when I talk about the 80s and the AIDS epidemic kind of pops up, where you would assume that the captain and the first officer and the flight engineer would have a problem and would not would be unsympathetic to people that were going through the the terrible disease. But they were pleasantly surprised that there was compassion and they were wrong in assuming that a lot of these very conservative gentlemen um really cared and were moved by what was going on. Anyone want to comment on that?

SPEAKER_07 45:10

Yeah, I'll jump right in there because I think it it just points out what Becky said before. Travel is the basically travel is the great equalizer. And if you're not exposed to different people of different races, people of different sexual orientation, uh any of those things, then all you know is the circle around you, and everything else is scary. Whereas at Pan Am we knew each other, we had exposure to everything, all these different cultures, um all these different orientations of of how people thought and how they acted. It was it was an awakening. If you like me just stepped into um, if you stepped into the big wide world from a little Midwest town. So I think that because the pilots and all the flight attendants and the passengers were more well traveled, had more exposure to all of these different things. And in the in the uh community of Pan Am employees, we knew each other. So I think that acceptance came right along with the the fact that you had come to know these people as your friends.

SPEAKER_05 46:44

And that's true, Linda. I I can say probably more cockpit crew members would ask me to go hang out and have a beer on a layover than anybody. They were I I can't think of one that did not that I did not enjoy working with.

SPEAKER_07 47:04

I think I think I think as as a very general rule, that is absolutely true. I as in any as in any society, any group, you're always going to have those that don't fit into that. And there were a few.

SPEAKER_05 47:17

Well, and it also depends on your approach. Yes. And it appears it depends on your approach as well. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 47:27

One of the things that has amazed me is the sense of family in the Pan Am community. And I would like to ask the three of you how did that family cope with the loss of many of its members due to HIV AIDS?

SPEAKER_07 47:47

Who said anything about coping? I don't think I I don't, I still don't think I've coped with it very well. It's hard.

SPEAKER_10 47:58

Well, I think we coped with it just like you'd cope with other illnesses and other deaths with your friends. Um, you got together and you mourned and you um, I must say, some of the funerals I went to were extraordinary. You had artists who painted pictures of the loved one who'd passed away. You had these guys would get together and cater the food. You had singers who would sing these gorgeous oratories in the church. Um just, you know, it was just such a very um poignant time, you know.

SPEAKER_05 48:44

The problem I had coping with it, and it was coping with it at the time, was you would go to a memorial service and you would see all your friends there, and you wondered who would be next. Yes, yes. That's what I coped with the worst, I think, was going to a memorial service and you see all your friends there, and you look around and you think, okay, which one of us is next? Because there was gonna be a next at the time. You just didn't know who.

SPEAKER_06 49:12

Yeah, I was tough. Anything you'd like to add about this time period and this topic that you think that future generations should remember and know about that you'll get through it.

SPEAKER_05 49:36

You're strong enough to get through it. Uh, I think that um we all are presented with obstacles throughout our life, and you have to make choices, and the choices you make will determine the outcome.

SPEAKER_10 49:51

And I think as the song says, you gotta have friends to get through anything. You've got to have a family of friends. And we had that at Pan Am.

SPEAKER_05 50:03

We did.

SPEAKER_10 50:04

We did. Still do.

SPEAKER_05 50:06

Pan Am is still, as you said, Tom, Pan Am is still family. Anytime you run across somebody and you know they flew for Pan Am or worked for Pan Am, even though you didn't know them, they're family. And I don't like to use that word, you know, loosely like that, but it's true. Anybody you come across it's Pan Am, that you have a you have a connection right away.

SPEAKER_07 50:29

I think so much of it is because we were adventurous, we were pioneers in so many regards, we and we relied on each other. Um we flew to some of the most remote places on earth. We had no support really. Um we couldn't call Chicago or or New York or wherever to solve our problems. We had to solve them ourselves. And we worked as a team with not only the crew members, but also the people on the ground staff and the mechanics, and everybody worked together to successfully resolve any kind of problem that arose. And and we became a very cohesive team all across the world. And if you went anywhere where there was a Pan Am station, you know that you knew that you could go in there and you could ask for help in with anything. Um help me figure out where I should stay, help me figure out how to get on a train. Whatever it took, the Pan Am family was there to support and guide you. And um, and we would do the same for any of them.

SPEAKER_06 51:44

Anything else you'd like to add to our conversation?

SPEAKER_05 51:52

No, but you've upset me today. I'm sorry. I'm on my second Kleenex. I I don't mean to it bring uh Tom, it brings back a lot, a lot of memories. You know, it's a long time since the 70s and the 80s, believe it or not. And it just brings back a lot of emotions that sort of have been pushed way back in um the back of my mind. And then I think about all my friends that I had, and it just brings back a lot of memories. So but that's good, it's okay to feel this way.

SPEAKER_07 52:31

Yeah, it's kind of it it kind of opens up that hole in your heart, doesn't it, David?

SPEAKER_05 52:36

It does, it just brings back a time in our life that you can't forget, and you never will forget, you know?

SPEAKER_10 52:42

No, and we won't forget them. The ones we lost. We don't, we always will remember them. No.

SPEAKER_06 52:52

And it's certainly courageous for the three of you to share your stories. Um after a quick break, we're gonna be joined by Linda Frere and Philip Keene, and they're going to share their stories as well. But it's important to document these stories for people to know what it was like living through this period, and for them to know um all these wonderful people that you knew that uh were victims of this terrible disease. So I would like to thank all three of you for joining me on the program. I know it's a difficult topic. Um and uh uh I I I thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_05 53:43

Thank you, Tom. And uh thank you.

SPEAKER_06 53:48

We are going to take a quick break before our next interview with Linda Freyer and Philip Keene with the song Time After Time by Cindy Lopper, sung by Kevin Ryder of Forte Toronto Gay Men's Chorus.

SPEAKER_03 54:17

Lying in my bed I hear the clock tick and I think of you caught up in circles. Confusion is nothing new. Flashback warm nights almost left behind suicide memories time after sometimes you picture me I'm walking too far ahead, you're calling to me I can't hear what you said. You say go slow, I fall behind the second hand unwinds. If you're lost, you can look and you will find me time after time. If you fall, I will catch you, I'll be waiting time after time after my picture fades, and darkness has turned to gray. Watching through windows, you're wondering if I am okay, secrets stolen from deep inside, the drum beats out of time. If you're lost, you can look and you will find me time after time. If you fall, I will catch you, I'll be waiting time after time. If you're lost, you can look and you will find me. Time after time if you fall, I will catch you, I'll be waiting time after time. You stay go slow, I fall behind. If you're lost, you can look and you will find me. Time after time if you fall, I will catch you, I'll be waiting. Time after time, if you fall, you can look and you will find me. Time after time if you fall, I will catch you, I will be waiting, time after time, time after time, time after time, time after time, time after.

SPEAKER_06 57:38

I would like to introduce our next two interviewees. Uh, Linda Freyer is the board chair of the Pan Am Museum Foundation, and Philip Keene is a board member of that same organization. Uh, I serve with both of them on the board, and we are going to hear from them about their experiences of the AIDS epidemic of the 1980s. Welcome back, both of you, to the program. You've both been on previous episodes. Linda, why don't we start with you? Tell us about what it was like to work uh for Pan Am in the 1980s when this terrible disease was becoming evident that it was uh an epidemic.

SPEAKER_09 58:26

Uh yeah. Um time, it's kind of difficult to remember or trace back exactly when we first started noticing an increase of illness in um some of the male flight attendants. Uh but it almost seemed like out of nowhere it just hit us with a force. And I was a supervisor at the time uh when this all started happening. And one of my very, very good friends was a flight attendant who was in the office with me, and his name is Michael Silber. And many painting flight attendants will remember Michael and his partner Barry. Um Michael and Barry both passed with during the AIDS epidemic. It's hard, it's hard to uh talk about this because they were so close. We were so close. Um, but I can tell you at the beginning people weren't sure what to make of it. There was fear, uh, but there was also understanding and a desire to try to, which was pretty pan-am ish. How do we fix it? How do we make it better? How do we get these people healthy? What do we do? How do we love them more? How do we care for them? So the company took a position um that this was an illness like any other illness, and um people were granted leaves and um uh treatment was was enabled, you know, through um insurance provided by the company. But other flight attendants were scared, and um some did things that were uh difficult to understand. Um I was on a flight and I remember one flight attendant putting on plastic gloves in to serve in the island. I remember saying, You you you can't don't do that. Don't do that, because it makes other people, whether they be passengers or crew, feel bad or that there's something wrong with them. Fortunately for us, that was the exception more than the rule. But overall, all we wanted to do as a group, as a team, as a company was find a way to make them better. My friend Michael, um, who was in the office with me, he knew at some point in his struggle that there wasn't going to be a good outcome. And so um after he lost his partner, Barry, he was somewhat resigned to what was inevitable. And I think those of us that were close with him didn't want him to accept that. We wanted to keep fighting. But he would do things um because and to this day I still have many of the things that he uh he gifted me. He would go to um he went to Honolulu on a trip and he um he knew I loved the birds of paradise flowers. So one day I received this huge bouquet of birds of paradise. And another time he was at the christening. My son was born in 1990 and Michael was there. Fortunately, medication did help him last longer and stay with us longer. And he um he said to me, I want your son to know me because I won't be here. And he uh he gave me a red flyer wagon so that when I would take Jonathan out for a walk, Michael would be with us. And I still have that red flyer wagon. He gave me things that were uh, you know, I can't things from his trips to Africa, things from that were of special significance and importance to him. Treasured memories that will be with me forever. We all hurt immensely because there were so many. And we saw them go through this terrible, torturous disease of and and we were incapable at that time of helping them.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:29

Philip, why don't you share us your perspective and your story?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:34

Well, when I was hired in 19, when I first started in it in 88, um I was well aware of what was going on uh in our community. Uh initially, when I first heard of it, it was called GRID, um Gay-related immunodeficiency disease, uh, which was the acronym given and the name given by Dr. Michael Gottlieb, um, who is actually a friend now. Uh so I was I was aware of what was going on and was terrified of it, like a lot of people, didn't know how it was spread, how to keep myself safe. Um, but through reading and trying to get the information that I could, um, I felt I'd armed myself as best I could and um was terrified to let anyone know uh when I was applying for this job, initially, even that I that I was gay, because I thought that would disqualify me from being hired. I didn't realize what a welcoming place it was going to be. Uh so I so I was a little scared of that. Um but I I never encountered any um, never really met anybody that that I worked with that that was ill, it was badly ill. I mean, I had known people before uh I was hired, that there was nothing the doctors could do for them. They were uh either evicted from their apartments or rejected by their families, told that this was God's judgment. Uh, even some of the physicians would tell them, tell them that. Um so it was a hard place to be. And I I I wanted this job so desperate that I that I tried to hide everything that I could about myself and uh didn't want this to be part of who I was. Uh but like I said, I I joined the company and I was fully embraced and felt uh a part of it. And um there there were colleagues I I knew who who were positive. Um so I've I've managed to come through this whole whole thing um with a little bit of survivor's guilt, I I have to say. Uh wondering along the lines of David Hinson that why everyone else and not me. Um but that but that's where I am today. And uh I I think that's all I can say. Say about that for at this moment.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:03

Linda, let's go back to your friend and how Pan Am as an American corporation treated their employees because during this time period there were other American corporations, unfortunately, that did not take care of their employees. And those employees were either fired or ostracized or both. Can you tell us a little bit about how Pan Am was different? And also tell us a little bit about your friends.

SPEAKER_09 1:06:36

Sure. Michael, like I said, was a supervisor in the office, and he remained working. He was right along beside us throughout most of his journey until he'd become too ill to actually come into the office. But the company, like I said before, was very understanding and I'm not sure if the word is loyal, supportive, wanting to be there for the employee because the employee had been there for us as a company. So people were allowed to use their sick time. And in those days, there was a very generous sick policy. They were allowed to use their sick policy as long as they were able to fly. If they weren't able to fly, then of course they were given access to disability. Never treated as a pariah andor some of the things that Philip had mentioned. None of that. This was our painting family. And they were hurting.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:15

That's how I always felt with the company. No matter what was going on with us, we always the company always had our back. Our friends always had our back. So that's definitely my experience too, Linda.

SPEAKER_09 1:08:26

Yeah. You know, these were our friends and colleagues, and especially those of us who were in in-flight service management. You know, we we flew with these people. We were all line flight attendants at one point or another. And so we knew these people, you know, from sitting on jump seats with them and from going to their houses and enjoying their company. And Michael was just a wonderful human being. I I don't have enough words to describe the kind of generous spirit that he was. But he was, and he was a great flight attendant. He just meticulous in everything he did. Um, you know, wanting to set up, you know, the the the uh flight um with every attention to detail, the incredible attention to detail. And uh, you know, he he he took pride in what he did, in everything that he did, no matter how he did it, he took pride in uh that's in his service delivery on board the aircraft. And he was the same as a supervisor for an in-flight service. Um, because he came off the line, he was very attentive to um whatever needs of the flight attendants there were that we had to address, or if there was corrective action that had to be taken. And I think it was that sense of pride that he had in what he did for a living and then in the job, that um that he had such a such professionalism in service delivery and in the office. He was always, no matter how sick he was, he was always professional and he was always well dressed. Um and like I said, you know, with those gifts he gave me um when he was not able to come into the office anymore and some of the trips he took, it's just a reflection of his heart. He had a heart as big as the global root structure of Pan Am. He was a special person, and uh I I you you don't always meet those kinds of people in your life. And I was blessed to have known him, um, as I know most of the people who knew him felt the same way at the time.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:43

Philip, many of our listeners um are younger, and the purpose of this episode is not only for the people that that lived it um in this time period, but also for younger people that are trying to understand what it was like to live in the 1980s, uh, especially as a gay man. Uh, can you give us a little bit of insight on how it was like to live during this time period?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:14

Yeah, um there were there were places for us as groups to go. There were um what I what we jokingly refer to is we we call them ghettos, gay ghettos, uh, where we could gather safely in in bars and clubs and things like that. But there were always incidents uh that you would hear about where a group of people would come into let's say West Hollywood or something and go gay bashing. Uh so these would be uh young guys mostly, uh sometimes armed with baseball bats or or or you know two by fours, and just they'd go into a gay area and just get out of the car and start bashing people at random. So, you know, even in those areas we weren't always safe, although we we felt that we were. Um, and then when HIV AIDS crisis uh loomed its its head, there there was really nothing anyone could do. Um, there was no medication that was in in the very beginning to to help anybody. People were ostracized, uh families disowned their children. Um, oftentimes people were put out onto the street in in New York with all of their belongings and possessions, sick as a dog, uh covered in Kaposi sarcoma and barely able to move, and landlords kicking them out because they didn't want them in their apartments anymore, uh, not being able to go into restaurants because people didn't want you in there. Uh, no one wanting to touch you uh when you were in the hospital, uh, nurses and doctors covered completely from head to toe. Um, and honestly, some of these people I think should have known better, especially the medical profession, even if they weren't sure um what exactly what was going on. I mean, there's some basics to understand about how viruses were spread, um, especially with this one anyway. And it was just it was terrifying because not only had they been abandoned by their friends and family, but they are abandoned by the people who were supposed to be able to take care of them in the medical field. Um and and nowadays the younger generation may have heard of this, they may have uh known someone who may have passed of it recently because of other complications, but they'll never see what we saw. The wasting of people, the desperation, the the hollow look on people's faces, the the you not that they should have to see that, but it was not an easy thing to go through. It just it just it wasn't.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:48

Linda, would you like to give your perspective on that?

SPEAKER_09 1:13:52

Um it was it was such a a kind of a mixed emotions of feelings going through that that time. Um because you we were fighting for so many things in the 80s. We were fighting for our friends to survive, we were fighting for the company to survive, especially the late 80s when things were um looking really bad. So our, you know, we just kept digging in and trying to work harder and harder and do whatever we could um to attend to the needs of of our of our friends. I mean, uh I wasn't obviously aware. I know Michael used to, Michael lived in Brooklyn, and one of his favorite places to go was the Brooklyn Botanical Gardens. And we used to, I used to meet him and we'd just walk through the gardens, and he would always feel, he said he could feel safe there. It was outside and it was a sense of beauty. And um, and and that gave him a sense of peace. Um, because the rest of the time I know in other aspects of his life um was not very easy. Um all the particulars I'm I'm not either I wasn't privy to or I don't remember those well, because the overwhelming emotion was about how do we help them, him survive? What do we do? What you know, we didn't have the internet then, we didn't have Google, we didn't have medical professionals who were as knowledgeable and able to, they didn't have the drugs and the medications. It was very much day to day, and we lived day to day today, just trying and hoping a cure, a remedy, something would be out there or on the horizon to get them to get Michael through another day, another month, another year. Um, you know, the fact that when I look back on the pictures of my son when he was christened in 1990, um I I, you know, and I see him in our pictures, I'm just reminded of the struggle and the fact that I was so happy he was still with us for that occasion.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:19

Early in the program, David Henson was talking about there was a flight that they took a picture of the flight crew. It was almost an entirely male uh 747 flight attendant. And in this picture that David was talking about, um, only two are alive today. And it got me thinking that you know the gay community lost almost an entire generation uh during the AIDS epidemic. Philip, would you like to uh give us a little bit more insight on that?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:54

Yeah, um as far as the the photograph goes, I mean, I have a an address book uh from the 80s where I would say a good third of the entries are blacked out because they're they're no longer with us. Um I lost I've lost a number of partners over the years. Um, and one that was very telling to me, uh, his mother never really accepted the fact that uh he was gay and that he and I were together. She somehow blamed me for him being gay and then for him getting sick, which happened well after we'd broken up. But as I attended his funeral, his mother came up to me and asked me a question. She asked me um if I learned anything from this. And I just looked at her and I said, Yes, I have. I have. And I think she knew exactly what I meant by that was that it's people like her, her attitude and her fear made his life a lot worse when it could have been a lot better. Uh he was so ill he had to quit work, um, he lost his job, he couldn't get another one. So he was reluctantly welcomed back home, where his mother made him sleep on disposable sheets, plastic cutlery, and paper plates, made him take his clothing out to the laundromat. And this is how she treated her son, who she claimed to love. Um, the doctor at the hospital, where I went to see him for the last time, agreed with his mother and said this in fact was God's punishment for his lifestyle choices. So, time and time again, this is what I came up against. Um, in whenever any of my friends or exes had um come down with this this horrible thing, and this is how they were treated. So I was fearful of first contracting it. Um, and I I just assumed that anyone that I met had it and you know would act accordingly. So uh it was just it was a very negative experience on on that end of it. I remember once on a on a flight, this only ever happened one time. Um, I was on a smaller aircraft with another male flight attendant and one other, uh there was a female flight attendant as well. And the pilot came out of the cockpit walking down the aisle and addressed the female flight attendant by her name and then turned to us and asked us, said, and how are you two sword swallowers doing today? And I just felt as though this, there was no, I had no recourse, I had no way to react to that other than shock. I mean, I couldn't say anything to him because he was in charge of you know the plane, he was the captain. Um, and so it just kind of put me in my in a place where I felt helpless, like a lot of us did at that time with what was going on. Uh, we were desperately searching for answers and compassion and just human kindness. And most of the time we would get that, but on those rare occasions when it didn't happen, I think it hurt more than it probably would have otherwise. Um I think I've gone off on a bit of a tangent, Tom, as I'm want to do. So any redirection in this uh area would help.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:22

No, I I think that um, I mean, the reason why we're doing this is not for us, it's for future generations that may be listening to this and trying to understand what it was like in the 1980s. Um, through the brilliance of science and medicine, uh, you know, HIV today is a manageable disease. Uh yes, it is.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:45

And it wasn't back then. There were no medications, and a few medications in the very beginning that there were made people desperately sick. And even up until you know the 90s, there was a there were a lot of things that sometimes the medications were worse than the the initial disease itself. I mean, the side effects alone were were almost crippling. I remember a f a friend having to do uh at-home chemotherapy. There was a version of it that would to help produce more white blood cells, and it was as though he had severe flu for uh you know six days, and then he would have one day off, would feel better, they would have to start this again. And I mean, it was it was horrifying just to see what was going on.

SPEAKER_09 1:21:25

Yeah, it was a torturous process that they went through. And I mean, I'm I'm I'm taken aback when I hear the stories that Philip says, because the the the nucleus, the family that I was associated with at the time was anything but that. So when you hear these stories, and I know they existed, I'm not I'm not um you know immune to knowing that they existed. They did, I know they existed in the bigotry and the and the horrible comments. Um, but that wasn't the group of people with whom I was working with and with whom I associated, and that wasn't how we treated anybody um that was afflicted with this terrible, terrible, horrible disease. And it was it was a terrible time to see people you loved and cared about so tortured by this disease. It it was terrible, and you just had to go one day at a time and hope that the medicine that a cure was around the corner. Unfortunately for my friend Michael, it didn't come fast enough. Um, but the good news is today, yes, medication has rendered it very you can live with it, obviously, um drive with it. So, I mean, it's a it's a different world we live in today.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:55

But the early days it's no longer a death sentence, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:22:58

No longer a death sentence. And but the early days of dealing with it not only as an airline, as a community, if you will, but as a society. I mean, there were, you know, people were afraid, they were scared, they they kind of treated some people like pariahs. It was it was the unknown. And um, there was all kinds of fake, uh, misunderstand, misunderstood uh sentiments about the disease. Um, medicine, it was kind of like the early days of the pandemic. People didn't really know what to expect or how to how to deal with it, and so fear did take hold of a lot of people. But I'm happy to say within our little community, we just use love and care and concern.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:49

Yeah, yeah. What message do you have for people that might be listening that did not grow up in the 80s, that did not have a personal connection to what was going on? Philip, why don't we start with you?

SPEAKER_04 1:24:06

Message. Wow. Uh I I don't know what kind of a message I would I would have to say for them, except that when confronted with something that you're not sure about, gather all the facts that you possibly can and remember to use exercise compassion and love because those are the things that will always get us through this. I think that's as much as I can say.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:36

Linda, how about you?

SPEAKER_09 1:24:38

I I I think um, as with anything, um whether it was the AIDS epidemic or the pandemic, um use um intelligence and compassion and concern, use love as the guide. Um you know the fear is a is a contagious thing as well. And it can overtake people's um understanding and comprehension of the real issues. And when I think back to all the crazy things that came out um regarding uh those who were afflicted with this terrible disease, they were so wrong. And and it was more instilled with um fear of the unknown. But if we used, I mean, I think one of the biggest lessons we learned too was uh when Arthur Ash, the famous tennis player, became sick, and he had gotten sick through a blood transfusion, um, and subsequently died, unfortunately. Um but here was a man of incredible talent and um and grace in the face of his um and face of contracting this disease, uh, but but he still used love and understanding to deal with the people um with whom he came in contact. And I I think that's the message. We just have to come from a position of compassion and understanding and not fear and judgment.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:16

Um agree more.

unknown 1:26:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:20

And there were so many people in the there were a lot of people in the beginning who really championed this cause. Elizabeth Taylor, Morgan Fairchild, um, uh Nancy Pelosi, uh, even Hillary Clinton and all of this. There were so many women of positions of power who stood up and made noise and demanded resources and help and understanding and and communication. And I I I've I can say that I'm proud to have met three of those women and have thanked them for their contributions to making this disease not as bad as it as it was.

SPEAKER_09 1:27:00

Yeah, yeah, they stood up in the face of a lot of um uh controversy and a lot of anxiety, anxiousness in the country and said, no, we will fight for these people and we will fight to get the money for research, and we will pour love and intelligence and research and science, science into understanding and treating this horrible disease. And um, and they made a difference, obviously.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:33

Yes. Well, thank you both for coming back onto the program. I know it's a difficult topic, uh, but it's an important topic. Uh, it's important for people to know what you lived in the 80s. Um, and it's important to remember all of the friends, family, and co workers that were lost to this terrible disease.

SPEAKER_09 1:27:58

Thank you. Thank you, Tom, for doing

SPEAKER_06 1:28:33

We're gonna end this episode with the song No Day But Today by Jonathan Larson from the musical Rent, sung by Paul Healy. Again, thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:07

There's only this forgive regret all life is yours to miss no other path, no other way, no day but today. There's only us only tonight we must let go to know what's right, no other road, no other way, no day but today I can't control my destiny. I trust my soul, my only goal is just to be now there's only giving to love all living fear no other path, no other way, no day but day there's no yes, there's only this forget regret all life is just to miss no other road, no other way, no day but day no day but day no day but day no day but day no day but day.