SPEAKER_09 0:14

Welcome to the Pan Am Podcast, brought to you by the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York. This podcast and our museum are dedicated to celebrating the legacy of the world's most iconic airlock, Pan American World Airways. My name is Tom Betty and I'm the host of this program. Thank you for joining us. The Pan Am Museum Foundation is a nonprofit organization. Please visit our website for more information at the Pan Ammuseum.org. Again, our website is the Panamuseum.org. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. If you are using Apple Podcasts, please consider leaving a review. It will help others discover this program. This podcast is sponsored by the generous personal support of Mr. Adam Aaron, the CEO and chairman of AMC Theaters. He is also president of our sister organization, the Pan Am Historical Foundation. If you're not familiar with Pan Am, welcome. We are honored to have you here, and for you to learn about what we're all about. If you already know of Pan Am, worked for, or flown on the airline, or just love our history, it's good to be with you again. So with that, let's get this episode in the air, so to speak. Welcome aboard your Pan American jet clipper.

SPEAKER_06 1:49

Your way National Flies nine-stops to New Orleans, Houston. At Los Angeles and San Francisco, we have the most nine-stops with National Airlines.

SPEAKER_09 2:04

You just heard a 1977 commercial for National Airlines. Pan American World Airways acquired National in 1980, and preserving the history of National is now the responsibility of the Pan Am Museum, and we take this duty seriously. In this episode, we will be exploring the fascinating history of National Airlines. Then we will be joined by four veterans of National, Captain Roy Baruby and flight attendants Fran Smith Burroughs, David Hinson, and Mary Bacon. National Airlines Air Taxi Service was founded in 1930 in St. Petersburg, Florida by George T. Baker. Note the year 1934 was widely recognized as the founding year of National Airlines. However, Baker founded the company that would become the airline in 1930. George Theodore Baker was born on December 21st, 1900, in Chicago and was the son of the circulation manager of the Chicago Daily News. Baker was widely known throughout his life as Ted, two friends, and GT in business. In 1911, when Baker was only 10 years old, he saw an air show at Grant Park in Chicago that forever changed his life with dreams of aviation of tomorrow and what could be. Six years later, at age 16, Baker learned to fly on an Alexander Rock aircraft. When World War I broke out, Baker enlisted in the U.S. Army Tank Corps. After the war, the young Baker dabbled in a variety of jobs but always maintained his dream of aviation. Baker was 5 feet 10 inches tall and had a husky build hardened with military service. His first job out of the Army was with an auto finance company in Chicago, where he easily repossessed automobiles with ease due to his formidable presence. From there, Baker moved on to being a ranch hand and studied at the Montana School of Mines. He also worked as a forest ranger in Idaho. But aviation was always his dream. When he was not working, he would be up in the plane, barnstorming or flying groups to and from local football games. Beginning on the streets of Chicago and then the plains of Idaho, Baker moved to Florida in 1930 to make his aviation dreams a reality. He established National Airlines Taxi Service with a lucrative air mail contract from the U.S. government for local mail. Four years later in 1934, the government started to cancel many local air mail contracts with regular carriers. Baker acted fast and submitted a low bid of 17 cents a mile to transport air mail and was ultimately accepted. At this time, his airline had only two single-engine Ryan 4-seater planes and flew back and forth between St. Petersburg and Daytona Beach. Baker found much success and profits, and in 1937 his company was reorganized into National Airlines. In 1939, the company moved its headquarters to Jacksonville, Florida, and by the end of the decade, the National Airlines network spann from Miami to New Orleans on what is called the Buccaneer Route. The new Lockheed Model 18 Lodestar became the backbone of National's fleet in 1940. George T. Baker made history himself in November of that year when he established a transcontinental speed record by flying a Lockheed Lodestar from Burbank, California to Jacksonville, Florida, a total of 2,357 miles in a record 9 hours and 29 minutes. National Airlines continued to grow and prosper and expanded operations north to New York and south to Miami and Key West in 1944. Two years later in 1946, National Airlines got approval to fly to Havana, Cuba, which coincided with the introduction of the Douglas DC-4. The DC-4 allowed nonstop flights between Miami and New York that started on February 14, 1946. Later that year, National relocated its headquarters to Miami International Airport and then opened a large maintenance base in 1950. The 1950s saw National's fleet expand with the introduction of the Convair 340 and 440, the Douglas DC-7, and the Lockheed L1049 Superconstellation. But the biggest coup was yet to come. In 1958, as Pan Am inaugurated the Boeing 707 with the airline's international service, Baker was able to outmaneuver other carriers and lease from Pan Am a fleet of the new jets. This made National Airlines the first to fly the Boeing 707 domestically. The deal between Baker and Pan Am was considered a great corporate triumph in the industry and further inflamed tensions between Baker and Eastern Airlines president Eddie Rickenbacker. In fact, as part of the deal, Pan Am and National swapped 400,000 stock shares with an option for Pan Am to purchase another $250,000 of National stock at a later time. It is unclear what Baker and Pan Am founder and President Juan Tripp were up to in 1958. Perhaps they were laying the groundwork for a partnership or even a merger. The Civil Aeronautics Board quickly intervened and either canceled or limited most of the stock swap agreement. In 1960, the airline continued to modernize its fleet with new Douglas DC-8s, followed by 10 new Boeing 727100 trijets, the first of which was later delivered in 1964. In March 1961, National Airlines gained access to California and began operating new Douglas DC-8s between Florida and Los Angeles and San Francisco with a number of flights stopping in Houston and New Orleans. Even though the success of National Airlines continued to grow, George T. Baker decided to retire as CEO on November 3, 1961, in favor of his nephew, Robert Wyland, to succeed him. However, a year later in 1962, the controlling interest of National Airlines was acquired by Lewis B. Maytag Jr., the former chairman and president of Frontier Airlines. Known as Bud Maytag, he was the grandson of Frederick Louis Maytag I, the founder of the Maytag Corporation, a home and commercial appliance company. Although replaced from leadership, Baker remained on the board of the airline he founded until his death a year later on November 5, 1963, at the age of 62. Under Maytag's leadership, the 1960s continued to see growth and expansion for the airline. And after the retirement of the Lockheed Electras in 1968, National Airlines became an all-jet airline with the DC-8 and 727s. The airline introduced first jet service into Key West in 1968 with the Boeing 727. The Douglas DC-8 fleet included the stretched Super DC-861, which was the largest aircraft type operated by the airline until the introduction of the new wide-body jetliners such as the Boeing 747 and McDonnell Douglas DC-10. In 1969, National flew the Super DC-8 nonstop between Miami and New York JFK Airport and non-stop between Miami and Los Angeles. The 1970s saw even more expansion for National. In June of 1970, National Airlines became the third U.S. transatlantic passenger carrier behind Pan Am and TWA as the U.S. government approved a Miami to London route. In 1971, National Airlines hired New York advertising executive F. William Free for a new campaign that not only turned out to be successful from a revenue profit perspective, but was also extremely controversial and offensive. I'm talking about the notorious Fly Me campaign. Let's take a listen to one of these commercials from 1971. While listening, substitute the word fly with another word that begins with F, and you will better understand why the campaign was so controversial.

SPEAKER_10 11:19

Everything you've heard about us Miami girls is true. We're always on the move. I'm Judy, and I was born to fly. Fly me to Houston. National has non-stop DC tens every day. Or fly me to New Orleans on the only DC tens. You can fly me morning, afternoon, or night. Just say when. I'm Judy, and I was born to fly. Fly me!

SPEAKER_09 11:44

Fly Judy. Fly National. This advertising campaign featured the airline's actual employees with a not-so subtle sexual induendo. The campaign was a clear sex sells example that many domestic airlines used in the 1960s and 1970s. The campaign, which also received criticism from the airline's flight attendant union and beyond, cost National a small fortune. They spent over $9 million a year on the ads, but their ticket sales and profits increased. The National Organization for Women objected to the ads, calling them sexist, saying that they presented flight attendants as, quote, flying meat market, end quote, and invited passengers to make sexual advances towards them. The campaign enraged other women's rights groups, and many activists protested outside F. William Free's advertising office in New York City, carrying signs reading, I'm Bill, fire me. As the 1970s went on, National's domestic and international system continued to expand, most notably with the addition of Paris in 1977, Frankfurt and Amsterdam in 1978, and Zurich in 1979. Fortunately, the airline's advertising also changed a couple times throughout the mid and late 1970s to something less controversial. Let's take a listen to one of these later commercials from the Watch Us Shine campaign in 1978.

SPEAKER_07 13:36

Bringing sunshine service to National's newest route, New York, to the heart of Europe, the bigger we get.

SPEAKER_09 13:48

During National Airlines expansion in the 1970s, with success both domestically and internationally, Pan Am was not having the same luck. The 1970s was the most consequential and pivotal decades in Pan Am's corporate history. The airline was facing multiple challenges, including the 1970s oil crisis, the dawn of global terrorism, crippling financial debt with the overinvestment in the Boeing 747, competition from foreign airlines subsidized by their home governments, and the U.S. government that consistently prevented Pan Am from establishing any form of a domestic network since the 1940s out of fear of monopoly concerns, yet allowed smaller carriers to start flying internationally and competing directly with Pan Am. All of these issues culminated in the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 that completely deregulated the airlines, removing federal control over such areas as fares, routes, and market entry of new airlines. With no restrictions in the commercial aviation business, the free market would dictate success or failure. Pan American World Airways was now in serious trouble from both a short-term and long-term revenue standpoint. The airline did not have the time, resources, or capital to create a brand new domestic network to compete. And with the Deregulation Act of 1978, domestic carriers could now start flying internationally without government oversight, which would eat away at Pan Am's bread and butter. Pan Am CEO William Sewell concluded that Pan Am had no other option but to purchase an existing domestic airline for its network to support and feed Pan Am's international route structure. Sewell shopped around and looked at several domestic airlines Pan Am could acquire and settled his sights on National Airlines. In 1978, Frank Lorenzo and Texas International Airlines wanted to take over National Airlines and acquire 24.6% of national shares, but ultimately failed in the takeover bid. Now that Pan Am wanted to purchase National, Lorenzo had the advantage to either compete to take over National or inflate the sale price of his existing shares so much that Pan Am would be paying more than it should. The bidding war put Pan Am in a severe disadvantage as it did not have the time to purchase another airline, and both outcomes would be profitable for Lorenzo, either taking over National for himself or selling his shares for way more than they are worth to Pan Am. The latter occurred in the summer of 1979, and Pan Am overpaid for National with a purchase cost of $437 million. But not until Eastern Airlines jumped into the bidding war with plans to merge with National, further inflating the stock price. President Carter approved the Pan Am National merger on December 22nd, 1979, making the new Pan Am the nation's fourth largest carrier. The purchase would further burden Pan Am's balance sheet, which was already under enormous strain with corporate debt from the 747 purchase and declining passenger revenue. The Pan Am National merger is considered to be one of the worst mergers in corporate history today behind the AOL Time Warner merger. National had a fleet of DC-10s that were incompatible with Pan Am's Boeing fleet and maintenance operations. Pan Am executives eliminated smaller but profitable national domestic routes to put the focus on international routes. In order to pay for the purchase of National Airlines, Pan Am was forced to sell some of the airline's non-core assets, such as a 50% interest in Falcon Jet Corporation, the Pan Am Building in Manhattan, and the Intercontinental Hotel Chain. Instead of a more measured and phased-in approach to the acquisition, Sewell wanted to quickly erase all signs of national airlines as soon as possible, no matter the cost. This ended up being a wasteful exercise where these expenditures could have been better utilized for long-term investment. In addition, the corporate culture of both companies were vastly different, and the transition was tumultuous for many employees on both sides. The financial turmoil eventually caught up with Sewell, and he was forced to retire by the Pan Am Board and replaced by C. Edward Acker in late 1981. Pan Am would continue having severe financial turbulence and was a target of terrorists throughout the 1980s. All of this would culminate with the airline ceasing operations on December 4, 1991. Now on to our interview. Captain Roy Barubi was never a stranger to aviation. His father was an airline pilot, and Roy began flying at an early age. He joined National Airlines as a pilot in 1956 at age 19. In his career, he has been a line pilot, check pilot, instructor, test pilot, and union rep. Just before Pan Am ceased operations, Captain Barubi was transferred to United Airlines, mainly flying the 747. He retired from United in the late 1990s and now resides in Buffalo, New York with his wife Sharon. His other passion, other than flying, is music, both composing and playing. Roy is a very talented musician and even has a YouTube channel where you can hear him play. There is a link in the episode description to see his YouTube channel. Mary Bacon joined National Airlines in 1976 as a flight attendant. After Pan Am ceased operations, Mary hung up her wings and started a successful career in nonprofit leadership and management. Today she resides in Fort Lauderdale and enjoys crafting, being back in Florida, watching her granddogs, and meeting up with old friends. Mary and others have organized a luncheon event every two to three months open to all Pan Am and national former flight attendants who enjoy reminiscing and catching up with old friends. David Hinson joined National Airlines in 1977 as a flight attendant. After Pan Am, he transferred to Delta Airlines in 1991 and hung up his wings in 1997 to start his own company. That company is called David Jeffrey Designs, a wholesaler and retailer of unique handbags, mobile bags, coin bags, wallets, jewelry, and accessories. And he has many Pan Am items. There is a link in the episode description to his website, and you can find some of his Pan Am items at our museum's online store. He resides in Atlanta, Georgia, and continues to travel the world, especially India, on business and pleasure. Fran Smith Burroughs was born and raised in Miami and joined National Airlines in 1976 as a flight attendant. After Pan Am closed down, Fran married her attorney husband and assisted him with his legal work. She also earned her real estate license and started a new career. Today, Fran and her husband are retired and live in Albuquerque, New Mexico. She is also close personal friends and neighbors with legendary news. Newsman Sam Donaldson and his wife. Fran helped us get an interview with Sam, and we encourage you to listen to episode 36 after listening to this installment. Welcome our guests to the Panyon Podcast in this special edition covering national airlines. We have Fran, Captain Barubi, David, and Mary joining us. Why don't we start with just kind of going around the table, everybody just giving their name and when they began with National Airlines? Fran, why don't you kick us off?

SPEAKER_02 22:35

My name is Fran Smith Boros, and I started flying from National Airlines in May of 1976. I was born and raised in Miami, and I chose National because they were based in Miami. I stayed with them the whole time until the demise of PM in 1991. And I enjoyed it. I also worked on the ground as a grouping supervisor. I worked in uh Europe giving out PM uniforms to the new hires that joined us. I really enjoyed it. It was great fun.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

And David? Yeah, my name's David Hintz, and I started with National in August of 1977. And the reason I chose National is because they hired me. And I was ready to find a career in the airline business that would allow me the opportunity to travel. I stayed with uh National until the merger with Pan Am, and I stayed with Pan Am until Delta took a certain amount of employees, and I stayed with Delta until 1997. And Mary?

SPEAKER_11 23:36

I began with National Airlines in November of 1976, and I also chose National because it was in Miami, and I'm not particularly fond of living in cold weather. They based everyone in Miami, and I was fortunate enough to be hired. Flew my first flight the day after Thanksgiving in 1976.

SPEAKER_09 23:55

And Captain Baru.

SPEAKER_04 23:58

I started with National Airlines on June 25, 1956. I was hired and went through training uh at what is now uh GT Baker School of Aviation across the June Road. For those of you who are Miamians, you know where that is. But back in our day, that's where the national headquarters were. And in fact, that was the terminal.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

We used to have to taxi the Yellow Stars, which was the first airplane I flew with national airlines. Uh and I'd had tailwheel time on DC-3, C-46s, and other airplanes. At the time I was hired, I was actually 19 years old. And uh they didn't want to hire me. He said, he looks like he's 19 years old. My father said, What do you expect to look like? That's what he is, you know. So I got hired and I'll never forget. Chief Pilot asked me, he said, uh, well, you gotta go to see the ER people and talk to them. He asked me, How do you have if you have any P-51 time? I said, No, I don't have any P-51s, but I've flown DC threes, DC fours, DC sixes, you know, all of these airplanes, but I've never flown a P-54. Well, I mean a Parker 51. Is this time a legitimate time? I said, sure it's a legitimate time. All you have to do is check with the guys I've flown with. They did. And they sent me home, they said, Don't call us, we'll call you. I'm sure you heard those words before sometimes. So I got home, and as soon as I got home, my father says, Go back to the airport. You're hired. I said, What do you mean? Well, they apparently checked, and they found out all the time was a legitimate time, so there you are, you've got qualifications already. So I went to work for the airline anyway. Put me in the classes, of course, and I started saying, I'll never forget the first class. One of the guys was in the class before me flying a low story. He walked by the training office, and the guy's name was Dirty Don. Dirty Don had a mouth like so many of you don't hear anymore, but used to be uh common. Dirty Don walks by and uh households, hey Don, come on in here and tell the guys how it really works out there in the line. He says, Oh, no, forget all those numbers. He says, They're gonna tell you all these things you have to memorize. He says, Let me tell you how it works. You push out of throttles until the captain says, That's enough, and you stop. He says, You have to give these reports all the time about how much fuel you're gonna have when you get to Key West, because that was the first one I was gonna fly from. I mean to Key West a really big rugby, you know, not a Lodestar.

SPEAKER_04 26:25

And then later on we flew that same Lod Star with 13 stops from Miami to Kennedy. It was called Idlewild at that time. 13 stops started at 4.40 in the morning. It got there at eight something at night, which had to be totally legal, but that's the way it was back in those days. Now pilots are no longer allowed to make that many stops in one day. And I doubt that the flight of Tennessee are online right now, remember making that many stops any Monday. And 4 40 in the morning, out of Miami, all across to Panama City, Pennsylvania, you know, all the way across and all the way up the coastline until you finally got to New York, Idola, land, and it was dark by the time you got there, you know. Anyway, that's how things started.

SPEAKER_09 27:08

Fran, why did you become a flight attendant?

SPEAKER_02 27:12

I always wanted to be a flight attendant my whole life since I was a little girl, and I couldn't wait until I had to turn 20 in order to apply to the airlines. I waited it out. I graduated high school early, I became a dental assistant, and I counted down the clock until I was twenty. I brought my application down in National Airlines, and I got hired, and it was the best day of my life, and I've always I've called my mother since I was a little girl and my whole family. I'm gonna be a fly dependent on it. Well, back then I was a starus. And I was born and raised in Miami, and I never was on an airplane before I started flying. So it was really new to me, everything. And I got trained in Miami, and uh I loved it. I loved flying, I loved meeting people. I was kind of shy in the beginning, and so I tried to fly within the United States all the time, but mostly within Florida in the beginning. And uh I loved that I was just Miami, Tampa, Tampa, Miami, Miami, Tampa. And then we also did those flights that the captain was talking about, you know, with 15 stops a day and leave a crack of dawn and not get to the hotel till 10 in the morning and then pick up as the next morning at 7 a.m. But back then we loved it. We enjoyed it, you know, like we just thought, well, this is the job, part of the job. That's what we did. Yeah, I loved it.

SPEAKER_09 28:34

Mary, how about your story? Why did you want to become a flight attendant?

SPEAKER_11 28:39

I didn't always want to be a flight attendant. I had worked at the airport in Fort Lauderdale during college. National Airlines was on strike at the time and got to know the agents, and they kept talking to me every day. Oh, you should become a you know, you should go apply. So they sent me to Miami. I I was quite gutsy. I went in and asked for Peggy Burke and used the station manager's name, although I had never met him, which is what I was told to do. She hired me right then and there, had me meet Jerry Miller, had me go for a physical, and that was say on a Wednesday or Thursday, and on Monday I started class. My employer wasn't too happy that I was going to work for National. He said, They're always on strike, and uh, they had just come off strike. So I called and asked Peggy if I could start a week later, and she said, No, you want to start now because seniority is everything. You don't understand it right now, but seniority is everything, and it turned out to be everything. Because when the DC 10s were grounded, they furloughed everyone up until the last person in my class, so I was able to continue flying. And like Fran, I was on reserve and I got called out for puddle jumpers. We would go from Jacksonville to Tallahassee to Pensacola to Panama City and and just go all day long. I went there was one flight that went from LA, it was an all-nighter, and to Tampa, and then stopped somewhere else and then went on to New York City, and we just did it because that was what the line was the time we had any knowledge of anything different.

SPEAKER_09 30:09

David, why did you want to become a flight attendant and why did you pick national?

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Well, I really didn't know I wanted to be a flight attendant. I was actually uh studying at the University of Tennessee on my master's, and it was getting close to me being bored, so I found this book on airlines and I started looking at it, and I saw where they would usually fly you to an interview. And so I thought, well, I'm just gonna put in an application to all these airlines and see if I can get a free trip somewhere. Sure enough, I did, and National sent me a thing back and said if I would come to New Orleans, because that was the closest place I was to where they flew into, that they would fly me to Miami for an interview. So I thought, well, that'll be fun. So I bought a ticket to New Orleans. I remember getting on the plane, and Debbie Drab was the lead flight attendant, which is what we called her, the first flight attendant back then. Of course, I was seated in first class. I'd never been in first class. I flew to Miami. And while I was waiting around in Miami, somebody said, make sure that you talk about owls when Peggy Burke interviews you. It was a class that had already started training, and I was talking to some. I'm saying, you know, these are cool people. This might be fun. So I get in and I'm sitting in the secretary's area waiting to see Peggy Burke. And the lady who was there, and I'm trying to think of her name, like she says, you know, the only reason we invited you in is because uh back then you had to send a full photograph of yourself and one of an up close of your face. And she said, I just want to know what flowers those are on the deck that you're standing on. We don't really care if you're hired or not, we just want to know what those flowers are. And so that sort of broke the ice. And when it was time for me to interview, I didn't see Peggy Burke, which I thought, uh-oh, I saw Nancy Henry. Nancy was a very delightful lady, and we hit it off just fine. And she says, Come on, I want you to go meet somebody. And I said, Okay. So she takes this brown envelope, and we get up out of her office and we go to the training center, and I talk with Kathy Wilder. And Kathy Wilder gives me that envelope back and she says, Come on, let's go talk to somebody. And we went on and talked to Jerry Miller. So after that, the envelope went back with me to Nancy's office, and she said, Hey, would you like a job with National Airlines? And I was sort of, I thought, you know, this can't really be happening. I just came down to go for a free trip somewhere. But then I was talking to all the people in the class that had just started, and I thought, you know, this might be fun. So I went back, I said, yes, I can start next week. I went back, dropped out of college. Not that I'd already graduated, but working on my master's, and I thought, I'll go back and get that later. And started training a week later and never went back. And it was the best choice of my life.

SPEAKER_09 32:54

Captain, you uh worked for National Airlines for almost 25 years. What made National Airlines special to you?

SPEAKER_04 33:03

I think I've heard this answer before by other people, and I feel it's the same answer. The people. The people who are all pulling in the same direction, not pulling in different directions. We had mixed races working in Miami, uh, on the ground, in the air, and and everybody was pulling toward the same goal. I I think that that's the biggest single thing I can say is the airplanes were always a draw to me. There's no other way of saying that. I loved airplanes. My father had been an airline pilot. I'd been trained early on, very early on. I sold so airplanes were a big draw. And when I got hired, you know, the airline was called the airline of the buccaneers. Later they changed it to the airline of the stars, and then later on they changed it to, you know, I'm uh uh Cheryl Flymey, and they they kept changing the name, and then they finally ended up with the Sunshine Airline, you know, with the big sun logo on the tail. The whole idea being that Florida was a draw because we went all the way to the West Coast and and and most of the northern cities coming to Florida to get away from the cold of winter, which now I'm not a strange thing. I lived in Miami for four years. My family did. I was based in all different places. When I started with National, I was originally based in Miami and then set up to Jacksonville and then up to New York and then back to Miami and then different places. And one of the things that was wonderful in my experience was that the airline kept having strikes. We kept they had the nickname, National Airlines had the nickname of the Cobra Airline. They had a strike every other year, it seemed like with some department or the other, because all the people were being pushed to their maps. I mean, I could give illustrations of that. We used to actually put multiple crews on a single airplane so that if a person only had 15 more minutes left before they got to their 80-hour limit or 100-hour limit back in those days, they'd fly to 50 minutes, get out of seat, and somebody else would get in a seat. So you'd have sometimes multiple crews to move an airplane from Miami to New York nonstop, believe it or not. So I'm very thankful for every minute I've had in the air and operated for over well almost 51,000 hours, which is unheard of, because I had a long, long career. It's just been a wonderful life, and I can't thank God enough for it.

SPEAKER_09 35:28

That's great. Thank you for sharing. So, Fran, David, and Mary, tell us about what the cabin was like on National in the 1970s.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Well, I remember my first flight was on a mini Boeing 727. There's no overhead bends. It was just pillows and blankets. There was a flight attendant seat across from that mid-galley that was a passenger seat. And there was a tiny little galley in the front, and then the main galley was in the center. So whoever was working first or lead had to drag everything from economy up to first class to do the service in that tiny little auxiliary gallery had. You could smoke anywhere on the airplane. Then later on, I remember they put placards on the seats with these pins. But uh, depending on how many people in the smoke, we would move those placards wherever we wanted them. And at one time, there was smoking on the right and non-smoking on the left, which made no sense because whoever's smoking on the right, the smoke just drifted over to the left. So it made no sense round or reason. But um that's what I and I just remember that our planes, when you would get on another airline, they'd have overhead bands sometimes. You'd think, oh wow, how nice. It was when they were not really big bands, they just wouldn't hold anything but a coat. But I just remember thinking that our planes were outdated and we needed to update them sometimes at Nashville because they were that brown carpeting and we had brown uniforms and brown seats with the orange and green and yellow uh little uh headrest on them. You know, that didn't bother me because I enjoyed what I was doing, so I just went along with my day. That's what I remember about the planes.

SPEAKER_09 37:04

Fran and Mary?

SPEAKER_16 37:06

You know, I was brand new, and like I said, I never flew on an airplane before. I had never even seen snow before. I was excited, but boy, I was just such a new baby on that. And uh, I learned a lot the hard way. I remember the first time I saw snow. We were landing in New York. First time I'd ever seen snow. And I was picking up the trays and the cups and trash and all that walking through, and I looked out the window right before landing, and I saw what I thought was white sand or something for to prepare for an emergency landing. And I ran into the cockpit. Back then the door wasn't locked. And I opened the door right before landing and I said, What's going on? And the pilots were like, What? And I said, Why is there sand everywhere? And they said, Oh, shut the door, Fran, and go back to your seat. It's snow. I had no idea. I'd never seen snow before. But everybody was very nice back then. Everybody dressed beautifully to fly on the airplane. It it was, even though we were little national airlines, it was still an honor and glamour to get on an airplane. We had beautiful food services everywhere. Even if we had a five-minute flight, we were doing food services and full bar carts, and it was lovely. And we stayed in, you know, really nice hotels, and that was exciting too. And you know, they had the crew there to pick you up, the crew bus driver, and you go to the hotels and everything's waiting for you. And it just was a wonderful way to see the world and meet so many people. Back then it was very it was glamorous, it was lovely. I I enjoyed it, even though I was known and I did a lot of stupid things in the beginning, but I learned the ropes.

SPEAKER_11 38:43

I was like Fran, I had never seen snow, and we landed in LaGuardia or Kennedy, and I was on my knees taking pictures one after another through the galley window because I was just a phenomenal scene. And it probably wasn't even worth taking pictures of. It was probably only a couple inches. It wasn't until we opened the doors that I got that cold blast uh because we didn't wear slacks with our uniforms at the time. I do remember the blast up my skirt how cold it was. But uh, like Fran said, we had we did have a wonderful service. I like the 727-200 the best. I liked finding the DC 10, but I only flew it when I was assigned it on reserve. So I became very adept at the 727-200. It just the service just flowed always so nicely. We knew exactly what to do. There was never any, okay, it's your turn to do this or your turn to do that. We hit a certain altitude level and just got up and everybody started working in tandem. They everybody just knew the the what the service was to be, how it was to flow, you know, what happened next. We sometimes had to worry about overcooking eggs in the oven if it was a breakfast service. And even on the very short flights, when we used to have air bridges, and I think that was by the time we were Pan Am, just between Tampa and Miami, we would do a service of beverages. And, you know, now that it's unthinkable for them to do for airlines to do any kind of service quite that short. But we when we upgraded, in my opinion, to the rust-colored uniform, I was so proud of that uniform. I thought it was beautiful compared to the brown gown. They changed our seat colors, and it was just, I was very, very proud in that uniform. That's when I think I really w had the most pride in being a flight attendant walking through the concourse because it we had such a unique uniform at the time with a national sunburst logo, and I loved to this day the sunburst logo. It's probably the best thing, best memory I have is the sunburst. It was such a happy logo. And I think the the employees were all happy. They were just they all worked together. Very rarely, I think, were there any disputes that I can recall. I mean, it was just one big happy family. Everyone got along really well.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Can I add one thing? Of course, that the girls had forgotten about. You know, you were talking about we always did a service, and even on the flats, um, we didn't have bar carts back then. We had to set up a tea cart, a three-tier cart. But on the shorter legs, when we would fly between, let's say, Miami and Fort Myers and Sarasota, we would actually ice down cups and put them on the tray and go ahead and pour Coke and seven up in the trays, put them already poured in galley in the trays, hoping that we didn't have an accident, I'm gonna let come flying out. So that after take them up, all we had to do was open those doors, pull our tray out, and go in the aisle with those diet coats or seven, I mean coats or seven ups. On short flights, no one would even think of doing that today. We would nice and have the beverages already poured and ready to go before we ever took off and just take them out and pick them up and we were done. But we never gone on a plane that we did not do a service of some kind. Whether it was before takeoff, even if it was my name to Fort Lauderdale sometimes, we would serve them on the ground before we ever took off and not have to get up in the air. But we never did a flight without doing some type of service.

SPEAKER_09 42:12

Captain, you uh started with propeller planes, and then you saw the 707 and the 747 and all these different kinds of jets. Uh, tell us a little bit about seeing the evolution of commercial aviation in that time. And also what is your favorite aircraft?

SPEAKER_04 42:30

The answers are simple. My favorite aircraft has always been the airplane that was flying, and I think that's still true today. Let me put it this way: I I'd like to touch on two things that have already been said about the services on the airplane, because the service was always not great. It was true that even on the Lodstar, you did the before you took off, you served the drink, you know, and and you served the drink on the on a on a short flight, no matter how short the flight was. Miami to Fort Waterdale, for God's sake, they'd have a drink. It was unbelievable. And then later on, when the constellations came on, we bought four connies, Rocky Constellations, the three uh three-tailed airplane everybody knows about. On that connie, they used to sell the sandwich because it was all just coach class. When the Canalis came on board, we put 102 people in the airplane. And ladies and gentlemen who are flight attendants from the 70s, when my wife was a flight attendant, her seat was on the toilet with a seatbelt with the door open at the back of the airplane so that she could monitor the cabin. And they sold the sandwiches. The sandwiches were $1 for a closed face sandwich and $2 for an open face sandwich on a route from Miami to New York or New York to Miami. And the reason that the open face sandwich was more was so that you could check to see how green the meat was. That's the worst case scenario. The best case scenarios were later on. When we had the galleys and real galleys in the Boeing 727s, and later on a real kitchen and DC tens and the real kitchens in the 747s, where we literally made complete dinners for people, you know, and and you guys know what I'm talking about. You did it too, especially on the international flights, all the international flights. When we would start flying London from Miami nonstop to London, a lot of people don't realize that National Airlines was considered to be a domestic airline. But we had routes to London, Paris, to Frankfurt, and to Amsterdam, and then later on to Munich and several other places. When the merger between Pan Am and National took place, we were already an international airline. A lot of people at Pan Am didn't grasp that idea. In fact, the management of Pan Am made a horrible mistake, and that was a decision that it was impossible to make money, make a profit on a route leg that was less than 1,000 miles longer. Now that's an unbelievable position to take, but they established that as a political. Therefore, they cut out many of the national routes, which were the feeder routes to Miami or New York or, you know, or Philadelphia, other places that you could go internationally for. And they didn't seem to grasp the idea that you feed people in. Later on, airlines that became the standard in industry, as we all know. You've got hub cities that are fed by locals, and that's how an airline makes money. You've got to feed the people into the departure. Even on your first flight that you're talking about, both of you, uh David and Fred, you flew to the hub to see. But to get there, you had to fly another airplane to get to the hub. That's what aviation business was right from the beginning. There were always the big airlines and the little airlines. Now what do you have? You have uh basically you had 117 airlines in this country. 117 of them. And that's hard to believe because now what you're down to about five or six uh major airlines and a few others that are subsidies of the major airline, most of them, with some exceptions, because there are foreign carriers still. The airline business was growing in its beginning. Every nation in the world wanted, if you go back and look at Miami International Airport, every airline from every country in the world wanted to have their own airline. And my father helped start one, Robius Guest Airline became Aero Mexico, and I can go on to the whole list of many of the different airlines. And as you know, mergers took place. We all went through the mergers. When the merger was coming up between National and Pan Am, one of the one of the things that was going around, and maybe you guys had tags, etc. Or not, we urged no merge because they were hoping to keep the independence that existed. When it happened, I have to say, the relationship between the pilots and the flight attendants on National was exempted. And when we got to Pan Am, it was even better. Now that's hard to say, but it's a fact. When I went to United thereafter, it was a completely different thing. There was a closed door. He said, you guys do your stuff up front, we'll do our stuff in the back, and if we have anything left over, we'll let you know. That was about it. Whereas at Pan Am, the flight attendants were up there every 30 minutes. But a wonderful moment, life did spread, so I can't talk about it off.

SPEAKER_09 47:20

Any memorable stories that any of you want to share about National Airlines?

SPEAKER_16 47:26

One time, 727, I had my little tray in my hand. I had three Cokes on the tray, three glasses of ice on the tray.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

I opened the door up, I walked into the cockpit and I tripped. The sodas went all over the top of the cockpit and rained down. And I was saying, Oh my god, never seem to again. They threw me out of the cockpit. They were like, Look what you've done. And I realized, oh my god, I got Coca-Cola raining from the ceiling everywhere. I didn't think they'd ever talk to me again.

SPEAKER_16 47:58

But you know, after we landed, everybody laughed and it was funny.

SPEAKER_11 48:01

Mary? I used to love charters. Um, I would I love the Detroit to Vegas charter. She made me, Fran made me think of this. And um, it was on a DC 10, and they would play the crew would play roulette, and the captain had the chalk, and he everybody would pick a number and he would chalk it on the tire to see where we landed. Of course, he was always the first one off the plane to tell us what number won, so it seemed like none of the flight attendants ever won. But, you know, we all got along so well in that respect. But at the hotels, we were treated wonderfully, especially at the Jural in New York. I mean, they just, you know, they might be checking people in and they kept doing what they were doing, but they didn't ignore us that somebody would come over and take care of us right away, give us our keys, and there was never any question. We had check signing privileges, which anymore, well, no one uses checks these days, but back then not everybody could just sign a check or walk in. And I didn't realize this until I had read something about Pan Am that a lot of vendors, when we would go shopping, identified us because we always carried our airline purses with us, and they would see that airline purse and knew we were going to be buying. They knew we were shoppers, so they would always negotiate with us. Had a long layover in San Diego one time where I wasn't afraid at all. Took the bus by myself to Tijuana, bought their fake stained glass and leather jackets and all kinds of things, hauled them back on a DC-10. We never had to worry about checking things. We always found a place to stow them on the aircraft. Most people brought back cores from Vegas and Los Angeles when it was illegal to have cores in Florida. We were all very popular for having those on our rolling carts. You know, we had a lot of privileges that we didn't realize until, you know, now that we're not flying, you realize that oh, those might have been small privileges, but just the same, they were privileges that other people didn't have at the time. And uh we just were we were treated very well. I mean, we were very well respected. I I don't think we were ever viewed, in my opinion, when we would get to hotels or anywhere as you know a second rate airline. We were always we were always considered right at the top, in my opinion. I I don't ever remember experiencing feeling like I was a second-rate airline.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

On those flights from Miami to Las Vegas, we would land in Las Vegas in the dark. They were night flights. And I remember one time one of the pilots asking me if I wanted to fly the plane. And I said, Yeah, sure. So he got up and I sat in a pilot's seat. Of course the co-pilot was there, but I was able to pull that steering wheel back on my head forward, and I had the best time of my life, and we all thought it was so great if only those passengers knew.

SPEAKER_11 50:51

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

Right, Captain? I never did let anybody do that, but I know of more than one guy who did.

SPEAKER_11 50:58

The pilots were always very nice to us. You know, a lot of people think there was there was tension between the pilots and the flight attendants, but they they were always very nice to us. So one time I I kept I had a whole month of Norfolk layovers, and I kept shopping at the mall that was attached to the hotel, and I felt so bad. This one dog, it was a little Maltese, hadn't been adopted, and hadn't been adopted, so I finally adopted it on my last trip of the month. And when I got to pickup, I had a little box for him, and the captain said, Where do you think you're taking that dog? And I said, Well, I'm gonna take him home to Miami, but don't worry, I'll check him. It has air holes in the And he said, No, that dog doesn't fly on my plane. Of course, I had a momentary panic. What was I gonna do about this dog I just bought? He said, Unless he flies in the cockpit. And we flew from Norfolk to New York and then New York to Miami. By the time he was he wasn't ultimately named this, but by the time we got to New York, they'd called him Reroute. He didn't make a peep, but they had him out. They were holding him, playing with him, hugging him. It just it was a very, a very nice experience.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

David? Yes, I had three things that remind me of National Airlines that stand out. The first is um on TransCons on the DC-10, we used to serve this punch and we would put dry ice in the punch. We go down through the cabin in economy, and all this smoke is coming out, and we served popcorn with the movie. And when the plane landed, I just remember how dirty that plane was from the popcorn all over the floor. And but the passengers loved it, and that's all that mattered, but I can remember that is one thing. Number two is I can remember the camaraderie between the cockpit and the flight attendants and the uh station agents because my two friend was um ready to sit in the cockpit seat one time and fly the airplane between Daytona Beach and Orlando, and I remember the captain very well. He's no longer with us, rest in peace, but he was a great guy. But that was the fun we had with National, I think, and that went over to Pan Am as well, I will have to say. I had just as much fun at Pan Am as I did at National. But those guys were cool, and I can remember an agent in Houston that the flight would be full, and you're we call it pass riding back then, and all of a sudden you get this boarding pass with no seat on it. So you go to the back laboratory and you sit down and you be quiet and you wait for the plane to take up, then you go out and act like you're doing something, then you go back into the laboratory. And of course, all those things you could have been terminated for, but we all sort of took care of each other and and turned our back on certain things just to make sure that everybody was accommodated when they could. And then the third thing I remember was uh talking about layovers. We had a layover in Norfolk, and the hotel, I think it was a Sheraton, I might be wrong, but it was in a mall. And the crew always got the same rooms. You know, you always got the same room. Well, in the air conditioning vent up above, if you got a certain room, you knew where to look for the liquor because we would take liquor off the airplane and put them in those air conditioner vents. So when you got to the room and you wanted a drink, you just got up there and got in the vent, and there would be bottles of liquor up there, and you just made sure you replaced it before you left and checked out of your room so the next crew would have a little drink when they got there.

SPEAKER_09 54:22

Very interesting time.

SPEAKER_04 54:24

One of the things that uh I'll bring up that was uh uh an interesting thing from the airline point of view was uh at National Airlines we had a great relationship between the flight attendants and the uh cockpit, as I've already said. So too at Pan M. But one of the things that was different at Pan Am uh than it was true at Nashville. We'd go out together at Nashville uh on occasion, okay, get the whole crew together and go somewhere. But it wasn't the standard. Whereas at Pan M, it was a standard. When you got to the railroad station, there was going to be a party in the captain's room, okay, uh after for the debriefing. The debriefing would take place so it was mandatory that you had to attend this debriefing about the flight. And there was, in fact, a debriefing. But some of what was just related also took place at those places at times. And the hotels that we had at Pan Am, I have to say this, were always far superior to the ones we were able to afford at Nashville, that the airline was able to afford at Nashville. We split, I mean, we stayed first class with Pan Am almost everywhere we went.

SPEAKER_09 55:33

We're going to take a quick break with a Pan Am commercial from 1980, just after the national merger.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

It's just Pan Am National One. You can fly Pan Am in 25 great U.S. cities, like Washington, D.C., Las Vegas, and New Orleans, and the epic kind of international service that's made us famous.

SPEAKER_09 56:09

Welcome back to our interview with Captain Roy Baruby and flight attendants Mary Bacon, David Henson, and Fran Smith Burroughs. Let's talk a little bit about the merger, 1980. Uh, Pan American World Airways was unable to establish its own domestic network due to government regulations, and they were forced to purchase an existing airline, and they purchased national airlines. Let's talk about that transition from a national airlines perspective.

SPEAKER_04 56:45

I think we'll address that, some of that. Uh I already mentioned the fact about the thousand-mile route link and how they disbanded the national airline they bought for the domestic route network, and then they basically dismantled it, which was ridiculous. And uh United did the same thing. They did something that I thought was ridiculous at the time. We had the Miami London run, the Miami Paris run, okay. What did United do when they bought the airline uh bought you know uh the transfer Atlantic routes? They moved that from Miami to Chicago. Well, people from South America didn't want to fly to Chicago to go to London, they wanted to go to Miami for London. And anyway, that's an example. So that was one of things. Another example that I thought was there was there was conflict. I've got to say, there was no other way to say it. There was conflict, there was union conflict between the two. There were problems that needed to be resolved. You had people who had a lot of experience with long-range flying at Pan Am. And you had a lot of people who had a lot of experience with making multiple landings all day long every day, and both of them had fatigue from different perspectives, which I'm just impressed. But what was interesting to me was that Pan Am at the time had about 28,000 employees. Nashville had 7,000 employees. Pan Am's objets were all owned by the banks. They were all on a loan basis from the banks and being leased. National Airlines were all the airplanes were 100% owned by National Airlines. In addition to that, they also had money in the bank. So when Pan Am bought Nashville, they ended up with a lot of assets that they could then do something with in the form of turning into cash, which they did. One thing that they had as an example of why they had so many more employees was because they were spread all over the world. National Airlines, everybody had a little tiny cubicle. I worked in management too. I worked as a line pilot, I worked as a check pilot, I worked as an instructor, I worked as a ground school instructor, I worked as a test pilot, I did an engineering, I worked as a uh air traffic control, I worked many, many jobs, and including things that are in the airplanes right now, like the flight management systems, the GPS systems, all these things were put in the airplanes, and we tested them in Ash. Another thing that's interesting about it is that when Pan Am had an executive, they were guaranteed a certain amount of office space.

SPEAKER_05 59:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 59:16

If you had a category uh in the Pan Am, you were guaranteed a certain amount of office space, and they and they kept that rule. They used to adhere to that rule. Very nice rule for the guy getting a space, but very costly for operations. Uh whereas at National, we still had blinds on windows in the form of paper, newspapers covering the windows in order to uh keep the sun out. Couldn't afford real blinds. So that was an example of the difference. But one of the things that happened at the at the merger, they were so opposed to this orange versus blue. Orange was national, blue was Pan Am. And there was always this disparity back and forth between orange and blue. Orange and blue, you blue, you're orange. Are you blue or are you orange? So one of the things that Pan Am did when they took over the terminal in Miami, they went through the terminal and they took all the orange out and painted all of the orange chairs blue. Unbelievable amount of expenditure for no reason whatsoever. The passengers didn't know or care. One way or another, they just needed a place to sit. Anyway, there's a couple examples of the difficulties of the transition period. There were difficult. Nobody will say there were. But the thing that worked the best was the fact that they put national personnel into the training departments, and the reason that was necessary is because there was a prejudice that we're not going to let any of these people transition to anything where they started putting national personnel in the training so that they could have a balanced position on training.

SPEAKER_09 1:00:47

David, what was your perspective?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:49

Well, actually, uh I found the transition to be probably one of the best things that ever happened. At national, I had gotten German qualified only because I wanted to get off reserve. So I had a past provisional, which meant that you had to be tested every six months. And my German was not good. Well, when Pan Am actually took the national flight attendance, because I had a German code by my name, you didn't have to be retested at Pan Am. So that made me a German speaker for the rest of my life with Pan Am, even though I hardly spoke any German. So in 1980, I was the first flight attendant that transferred out of Miami, the first national flight attendant that transferred out of Miami, and then I went to Honolulu. And on my first trip in Honolulu, I remembered the briefing room. It was a 747-Dagon, and all the flight attendants came around to meet me because they wanted to see what a national flight attendant looked like. I made some of the best friends that I ever made in Honolulu, and I stayed in Honolulu for probably about, oh, I think three or four years to first go around. And I remember when I left, there was still the orange and blue, and everybody knew I was orange, but I sort of blended in with the blue. And so I decided to transfer from Honolulu to New York. And when I got to New York, I had my German-speaking qualification and I had transferred in from Honolulu so nobody knew I was ever nationalist because it was still a lot, mostly Pan Am people in New York. And so when I would get on a plane and they would start talking in the galley about orange versus blue or blue versus orange, I would say, well, you know, I was orange, and they'd say, No, you weren't. I would have to convince them that actually I started flying with National and then I'd always been with Pan Am. So I found the transition to be very easy. I I looked at it as positive as I could. I won't ever forget my roots at National, but Pan Am was the glory for me. I loved every minute working for Pan Am. I liked the opportunities they provided. I love the people I worked with. And I never had issues with the transition. I never I refused to get into an argument with anybody that wanted to go orange versus blue. I just didn't do it. And um to this day, I feel like that it's still one big family. No matter what ancestors you have, you were still Pan Am.

SPEAKER_09 1:03:18

Mary, what what was your perspective of the 1980 acquisition?

SPEAKER_11 1:03:23

The Miami Union was very active in not supporting Pan Am taking national over. So we were sort of, many of us were convinced that the merger was not going to be a good thing for the national flight attendants. But for the first two years, we operated even after the merger as national flight attendants. We stayed in our national uniforms, we got national pay, but we were flying in Pan Am airplanes. They had changed the logo on most of the planes. So I didn't notice any real change. I was one of the I was a flight attendant who um got pregnant in um I was initially on maternity leave when the merger occurred, but I came back and I still wore my rust-colored uniform. And then in 1982, I became pregnant again, and there was a ruling that national airline flight attendants could fly until their fifth month. And it had been approved by the courts right before the national panium merger. So the union was trying to prove that I was still a national flight attendant being treated as such, and so therefore we should be allowed to fly until our fifth month. So I was their test case, and the union rep Gary Pastorella had me right down the jetway, said all we need to do is get you to cross the threshold, and we've won the ruling. But Pan Am got an injunction against our injunction, and I ended up going on maternity leave, but it was ultimately settled, and and people won the right if they wanted to fly till their fifth month of pregnancy. But that was a national court order that ultimately Pan Am assumed that liability, so to speak, or asset, however you want to look at it. When I came back from my segment second pregnancy is when I really noticed the difference because the uniform was, as I had said earlier, how proud I was of the rust-colored uniform. That blue, you the Navy uniform was very special. It was really spectacular. The cut on it, the it was just a lovely uniform, and it made me very proud. And I realized people did look at us much differently walking down the concourse dressed in our Pan Am blue. And then I got my first paycheck, and I had had a flying buddy at National Airlines, and I called her and said, I think they made a mistake because my paycheck is way more than it should be. And uh she said, No, that's the increase, that was the difference in what Pan Am was making versus what National was making. So we were making much less, I don't recall the amount, but I do remember being stunned by my first paycheck. There was for quite a while. The orange versus blue, but I I think it was because we were Miami based. There there was still that tug of war with the union that didn't want us to merge. And but other than that, I I think uh initially whenever we would fly to New York and be put with PM crew, they didn't think we would be able to walk and talk and push a beverage or a food cart without chewing gum. And I think they were quite surprised that we could do it without chewing gum. I think they looked it upon us like we were the the hillbillies from Miami or whatever. But um once they realized that we had done many of the same services they had done on their international routes and and all the services we did domestically, I believe that their attitude, that's when we all became one family. And now everyone has such pride in being part of Pan Am. You know, I had 11 of my 16 years of flying as a Pan Am flight attendant. So I identify more, I believe, with Pan Am, but I haven't lost my pride in national.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:02

Hey Tom, can I make a correction? Of course. Mary brought up something. I had said I transferred in 1980. She's right. There were two years that we worked, 1982 is when I transferred to Honolulu, because I remember within those two years, Pan Am had furloughed some flight attendants. And those Pan Am flight attendants came and worked with us at Nashtal and wore a Nashtal uniform, even though they were Pan Am flight attendants, because we took them, we needed flight attendants, and Pan Am had furloughed some, so we brought flight attendants to work with us until the merger was finished.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:37

I'd like to say something. I think that we were all blessed and fortunate to have flown with Pan Am on some of the most premium days that aviation has ever had. You've seen on, you can look on YouTube, for example, there is an outfit right now trying to show people what first-class travel used to be like on Pan Am. And it is a true accurate representation. And the same thing was true at Nashville at that period of time. It was the height, it was the height of the most elegant, prestigious place in the world to be. I know the Pan Am people used to look back and say the glory days were in the flying boats when they China Clipper first flew. And I and that was a glory day too, for we flew in a period of aviation that was the most wonderful period of aviation. Now all pilots they're they're button pushers, they have become uh button pushers. And I don't want to get into the details of that, but let's just put it this way. We we when we were flying, originally we had no autopilots, we hand flew the airplanes even across the North Atlantic, and people will tell you on other airlines you can't fly across the North Atlantic without an autopilot. I said, of course you can. How do you know? Because I've done it many, many times. All right? And I could go on and on, but what I'm trying to say, it was the height of the period of flying that I am thankful to God that had the opportunity to experience, especially with Pan Am at that time.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:16

The first timetable during the acquisition said Pan Am Goes National. And there was a sunburst and a blue ball on that timetable. And I remember it well because there was a huge logo and it just said Pan Am Goes National. And that was part of the same uh thing that Roy's talking about with half of DC 10 was national and the other half was Pan Am.

SPEAKER_09 1:09:38

Fran, what's your perspective on the merger?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:41

Well, for me, it was terrifying. I I did not want to merge with Pan Am. I was very happy with National, so I did everything I could to stick with my national routes that you know I was flying. But very slowly, Pan Am was getting rid of routes, which were very confusing to me. And one of the first ones was Miami, Las Vegas. And that, like I said, that was oversold every single flight. And you know, I never and it was such a moneymaker, and I I never understood that. You know, I kept flying my own routes, and I had a little group of people that I flew with, and we were all upset and crying and tears, and and it was a very difficult transition for me. I I tried to stay as much national as I could until then I was finally forced into, you know, I have to start wearing the uniform, and and then you know, I very slowly started flying the Pan Am routes, Miami, Rio, Miami, Argentina, Miami London, and I said, you know, this isn't that bad. I took a flight to Derita. And I said, this is fun. I had layover, so then eventually, you know, I said to myself, okay, this is gonna be fun, just fine. And you know, I still have my group of people, but there was a lot of angst in the beginning, you know, a lot of tears. Remember the logo, the National Your Lives logo with the teardrop coming out? Yes, coming down the face. Yeah, that just you know, I I thought it was very hard for me. And Mary, like what you said too, when I saw my paycheck, I thought the same thing. There's something wrong here. I I don't I don't make this much money. And it was shocking, and it was beautiful, it was really wonderful and changed my life, and you know, I did enjoy that part too. But it was tough at first. Uh I also had blind buddy, and uh the two of us, you know, we just like normalized everything and and you know, just took the routes that we were most comfortable with. And then, you know, the two of us together said, Oh, this isn't so bad, and you know, we started learning the Pan Am way, and then for two years I worked on the ground for Pan Am in the grooming department. That's where they also had designed that Pan Am uniform, and it was so chic and so beautiful and fit everybody so nice. And they had pants. Pan Am, you were allowed to wear pants, and I was over the mood with that. That was my very happy time. And then, you know, everything was a little different, and Pan Am, you know, we would have to do our training, our recurrent training every six months. And now there was Pan Am instructors there, you know, explaining how they do things, and and it was it was very different, but you know, we all loved it in the end, and and it was really beautiful, and um I loved flying with Pan Am.

SPEAKER_11 1:12:20

I know that many original Pan Am people felt adding national employees was a detriment, but I think adding national employees to their roster was a true asset because they wanted to venture into domestic routes, and they took National over, who had great experience with domestic routes, and what the customers liked from, say, Detroit to Vegas, they drank Canadian Club. If you flew other cities, they you know you knew to stock the plane with a different type of liquor. It was something that they didn't have that learning curve because catering knew it, the flight attendants knew it, the management knew it. And so they had that we had that domestic knowledge that they they didn't have the learning curve to grasp onto when they took over national. Also, as Fran had mentioned, training. One thing with Pan Am that was a positive is we might have flown Houston to New York on national, but then we went into cultural training when we became Pan Am because we flew a lot of people that would then connect onto Saudi Arabia. We were taught how not to speak directly to the female that was traveling with the man, that we spoke to him and asked what she wanted to drink or what hand to serve them with, and those types of things that were never addressed at National, but that wasn't our target audience at the time. Whereas with Pan Am, they were connecting on for the most part. That was, you know, there were a lot of pluses that we did learn. You know, we we learned a lot about the world from Pan Am through our training classes and our experiences, but we also brought a lot of experience that helped Pan Am as well.

SPEAKER_09 1:13:59

So, Captain, you mentioned that after Pan Am you went over to United. David, Mary, and Fran, what happened to you after Pan Am ceased operations in 1991?

SPEAKER_11 1:14:12

I went into the nonprofit world and spent 25, 30 years uh working for various national nonprofits. I finished my degree because, like David, I dropped out of college when National hired me. I was in my junior year. Since it was November, it was uh really still the middle of a semester. And so I finished my degree and went into the nonprofit world. That's how I had ended up from Florida into Kentucky, was just a uh an upward level position. And I enjoyed it, but now I'm back in Florida because I I really truly didn't like the cold weather. Uh I felt I did a lot of good, but I also feel that my airline experience helped me in how to relate to people, that I might not have had that experience from another job.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:58

Tell you what I did. Well, you know, there's transitions, when there's a transition and there's an opportunity to do something else, you have to make a personal choice of what you want to do. And that happened twice when I was in Honolulu. Uh, that's when you nod involved Pan Am Specific. And I was one of 70 fly attendants that decided to stay with Pan Am. So when Pan Am was getting ready to make the decision or the decision of whether you could go with Delta or not, I had to decide if I wanted to stay with Pan Am or try to go with Delta. And it goes back to my German again because my seniority, uh, Delta was not taking flying attendants to my seniority unless you had a second language. So I went back to my German, which was on the roster that I was a German speaker, and I got my tapes on it, and I started practicing German again. I went and got hard with Delta, and um during my German test, I had to be tested, and I remember the lady asking me in German when I was born, and I answered her in future tests, I will be born in a year, and she laughed and she said, You're gonna be just fine at Delta. Welcome aboard. And so then again, I transitioned over to Delta. You just have to go with who you're working with at the time and make the best of it and reflect on all the memories you have but move forward with your life, which is what I tried to do. And the biggest uh compliment you could get when I first started with Delta was that passengers would actually say, You're former Pan Am, aren't you? They would know right away that we were former Pan Am flight attendants when we would be working a flight, even though it was on a Delta plane. And that was the biggest compliment you could get, but I enjoyed my career at Delta as well.

SPEAKER_09 1:16:40

So, Mary and Fran, when Pan Am ceased operations, you got out of the aviation business, and Captain and David, you respectfully went to United and Delta.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:52

For me, it was traumatizing the ending because I was in Mexico City and I was with a crew uh I had there were two uh pilots and ten flight attendants. I think we it was a DC-10. We flew to uh Mexico. And about seven o'clock in the morning, we all got a phone call. Pan Am is gone, out of business. Very sorry. Good luck with your sales goodbye. And the next thing you know, you know, we needed to get home. We we the hotel wanted to charge us because Pan Am wasn't gonna pay the bill. And and it was just a terrible mess. And I remember the captain and the co-pilot and the cursor met in the captain's room and they all hit the mini-bar. So um I got on the phone, even though I don't speak Spanish, and I started begging that I called Delta, I called American. I was calling everybody, and I said, you know, there's a whole crew, and we're stuck here. And, you know, the in the whole morning they said, Well, that's not my problem, you know, too bad, too bad. And then I said, Let's wait till the afternoon to the shift change, and there was a shift change, and then I called again, and I called American this time, and I begged them. I said, You have a whole crew here. We're crying, we're in tears. We're we're we can't even believe what just happened to us. And they were so nice, and they said, Okay, don't worry, we'll take care of you. And um, you know, we had to argue our way out of paying the hotel bill as we left, and then, you know, we had to pay for cabs to go to the airport, and then there weren't enough seats, so some of us had a sit jump seat, and you know, some of us sat in, you know, I we were willing to sit in the bathroom, we didn't care. And then finally we were all on the airplane and we took off, and all of us just cried the whole way from Mexico to Miami. And then when we landed, and then we went through customs and we walked outside, you know, there was news cameras there and stuff like that. We were in tears. We were like, leave us alone, and you know, it was it was really it was horrible. I knew a lot of attendants that you know didn't make it through that merger. They were so depressed and sad, and it was it was really hard. I ended up getting my real estate license, so I was selling real estate in in the end, and then you know, I was married, so thank God I I had that security.

SPEAKER_11 1:19:11

Well, and to add to uh Fran's message, uh there were so many crews stuck all over the world uh when Pan Am ceased operations. I was fortunate I was in New York City at the Dural, and I got a call from the union at nine about 9:15 to gather all the flight attendants or contact all the flight attendants at the hotel and tell them to stay put in their rooms or at the hotel or be close enough to be contactable. Uh they were arranging a flight for us to come home. And the way the story w was told to us, the pilots had taken off from Miami in the morning to fly to Detroit. And the captain, when they landed, they found out Pan Am ceased operations, but the captain had been asked to take the plane back to Miami, go through New York, and in New York he refused to get out of the cockpit, and he said he would not fly the flight to Miami until they boarded every crew member that was in Miami that wanted to get back. It was 10 o'clock at night. They had arranged a shuttle for us because in New York we were really treated well. They really national and and then when we became Pan Am, the crew company, the hotel, they really they really liked Pan Am. They made sure that there were crew buses to take us all from the giraffe. Even people that were just there in New York on their own were able to fly with us. You'd look out the window, and there was at the gate next to us, they had already painted a Pan Am logo over to Delta. They hadn't even finished the job. It was still just the Delta logo on the tail. The pilot had to use his American Express to fuel the flight because Delta refused to do it. So we probably had at least 40 or 50 people on that last flight, and we were told when we landed there's a lot of press outside, you know. And so for those of us that had our uniforms, got off as professionally as we could. And but it was very sad, you know, to look at the monitors and see ceased operations. I I just kept thinking the next morning they were gonna call and say it was a joke, you know, but the joke never ended. So I to this day regret not knowing who the pilot was who really got us all home. We didn't have to get on the phone like so many crew members did to try to get other airlines to fly them home. Or they had to pay their own way.

SPEAKER_09 1:21:26

Captain, would you like to share your story?

SPEAKER_04 1:21:28

Yes, uh, in a direct way. When the Pacific group was transferred from Pan Am to United Airlines, the merger between those pilots who transferred from Pan Am to United was done strictly by seniority. You mentioned everything in the airline business has got to do with seniority, and certainly it made all the difference in the world for me. I know I was having a really difficult time uh as a pilot at National Airlines. My seniority number at that time was number 14. I was having a difficult time because I was having a hard time believing that Pan Am was going to fold up. The amount of pilots that were going to be allowed to transfer, there were 200 jobs involved in the routes to the Europe. Over 200 jobs, okay, 213, in fact. And I know that because I was elected to be the merger representative from uh Pan Am to United for the group of 42 that was called, which meant there were 14. My senior seniority number was 14, and I was just able to transfer, so I said, Lord, thank you very much. So I transferred to United, and uh shortly thereafter Pan Am completely folded up, and then Delta took over the routes to South America and the rest of the routes, Delta and other airlines took over the routes to South America that had been Pan Am so. One of the stories that I uh I tell is that it was a blessing to me to transfer to United, and I'm thankful for that personally. But I know an awful lot of people that should have been able to transfer from Pan Am were not allowed to do so. Something like 213 pilots, only 14 were allowed to go. Was that fair? No, it was not fair, but was it negotiated? Yes, was it arbitrated? Yes, and if we believe the court and justice system, it was a fair transaction. I have to say that to the people at United. Even though they punished me for two years by facing me, not in Miami where I live, but in New York on a short call for two years, I had to be within uh two hours of the airport anytime I was called, and that was my assignment for two years for being a union representative. All right, and so be it. I'm not bitter about that. I'm thankful that I transferred to AM to United, but I'm so sad, so, so, so sad, that there has never been an arrangement made amongst the various unions of all kinds to establish a criteria and a methodology that would obviate this problem in the future. You heard me say before, there were 117 airlines in this country. We're now down to basically five major airlines and a lot of subcarriers that are operating under her signature. Now, there's something wrong with this whole system when the big dog eats the little dog all the time.

SPEAKER_09 1:24:25

Before we go on to our closing statements, I did want to point out that David Hinson, since retiring from Delta, has established quite the jewelry business, and some of his pieces can be found on the Pan Am Museum online store. The uh links will be in the episode description. David, would you like to talk about some of your jewelry designs and also your social videos on Facebook that are just a hoot to watch?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:57

Well, actually, after I left Delta, my business partner and I started a business. It's called David Jeffrey, and we do uh ladies' handbags and jewelry and apparel. During COVID, there were nobody buying beaded handbags because nobody was going anywhere. So I said, I gotta come up with something to do. And Jeff says, Well, you know, we've been lucky all these years. He said, We need to find some way to give back. So I approached the Whirl Wings, which is a Pan Am organization, and asked them if they would like for us to donate a certain amount of money to Doctors Without Borders through World Wings. That's their person they contribute to. And she said, Let me ask the board. And so, in doing so, I said, I'd like to sort of sell some Pan Am products, but you have to have a license to sell Pan Am products. So I went to Pan Am Brands and talked to the ladies there, and they already knew who I was because of my social standardies that'd been doing. And so she had said, Look, we're donating 20% to Dr. Left Boards. What can I do? And she said, Oh, you go ahead and start selling or get a license for you now, and so it turned out to be um something every thing maybe when I cheese on here because she's my biggest fan, and she shares all my social strategies, which causes thousands of people to look at them. I just want to keep Pan Ant Lane alive, and I want to keep the pen and live tenants sort of connected in some way. So I do the social strategies not to sell anything because that's not my intent is to sell, so you'll never hear me mention David Jeffrey handbags and George and my social savories, because it's all about Pan Am. And I have so many people that run it and study, and many know that too. Oh, please keep these common nature so great. And they're not airline people, they're people who just really enjoy listening to stories about former Pan Am or national flight attendants and where they are today, and the stories they had back when they were flying some many, many years ago. So it's and it's it's a stress for me because I have to keep finding people that are close enough that I can ask them to come over here. Because if if it was close, I'd already married here. I'd already have plans here, I'd have all these people here. But I have to find people in my vicinity that are willing to come over here so I can film it here in my little tiny studio I have. So uh thank you for asking me about that, but it's been good. And we were able to donate last year to World Wings because of the retail summit uh and Pan Am. We donated close to $20,000. So we've been really, really happy about that. And it's made Jeff and I feel good as well.

SPEAKER_11 1:27:38

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_09 1:27:39

That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_11 1:27:40

The Pan Am Social Saturdays really are very popular. We have different reunions around the United States, different groups organize reunions, whether it be national or pan or a combination of both. And I had purchased a Pan Am bag from a little store and carried it to one of the reunions. And got so very many comments that everybody wanted them. And so it was well it was really welcome once David went live with his Pan Am route map and different Pan Am bags that people could have access to. And I'd say, you know, here's your opportunity. You know, you were looking for that bag that no one else can find, and um you don't have to buy a knockoff. And I think people e it's a recognizable name because even people that are as young as my adult children are say, Do you know have you ever heard of Pan Am? Oh my gosh, where did you get that bag? That that's iconic.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:33

Well, a little last story for me, in order to honor Pan Am, one of the things I've done is I put a YouTube thing on it. You can look at it anytime. It's called Pan M 103. And it's the history of that, and I compose the music for that, because that's I'm now a musician of no longer planet, so I write music and I perform in five different bands, but that's not the point. The point is. I've written the music for this, and it's uh the history of Panium and Flight 103 and how that all took place, and you can see that on YouTube anytime.

SPEAKER_11 1:29:08

Well, I to your point, Roy, the music that we used to use is boarding music, and when people play it, and it's I don't know what horn it is, but when it first starts out, it's just so moving to me. I still get chills listening to it. And uh it's just it will probably be with me forever, the emotional reaction that I get to that song. It's the you can't beat the experience.

SPEAKER_09 1:29:35

I have a closing question for the four of you. Why is Pan American World Airways special? And why should, in your opinion, the history be preserved for future generations to appreciate?

SPEAKER_11 1:29:51

I think it's because of the service that we offered, the prestige that Pan Am was. It was very well respected around the world. It was so respected that it became sadly a target for terrorists as the years went by. And that logo is I think it's second only to the Coca-Cola logo that people remember the Pan Am logo that didn't even live in those times. And like you had said, Tom, your exposure to it was when you were 11 years old. So how memorable was that flight to you that Pan Am stuck in your brain? And whereas you could have flown some other airline and not even known what airline it was that you were on.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:32

I think it's because Pan Am represented the United States during the years it operated, and I can remember as a crew member being in a foreign country, a third world country, and pastors get on board, and there is someone from the United States there to say, Welcome on board. And it made them feel like they were home just getting on a Pan Am airplane. And I think when you put the professionalism that all the employees had at Pan Am and the blue ball that rode on the tail of that airplane, and the places Pan Am flew, it was an iconic airline that should be around and should always be around for people in the future to know that we did represent the United States at one time. And still do, because people still know Pan Am, even today. You can go to foreign countries and you can say, I used to work for an airline called Pan Am. They weren't even born, but they've heard of Pan Am. You can't say that for some of these other airlines that are in existence today, and they've just still never heard of it. So I think that's why Pan Am is special. And yes, I think the name needs to go on. I do.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:44

I completely concur with the statement of the day that just made Pan Am was the chosen instrument of some books and been written. It was a representative of the United States, and it was attacked on 103 because it was the symbol of the United States. It was an attempt just like the World Trade Center to take down the United States by those who take us out of the world. Those of you who are historians, which is what you're all about, they have innovative many things that became essential for airlines, whether it literates in the radio, whether it's long-range flying, whether it's the use of navigation, whether it's the use of the building of the bigger airplanes to make aviation affordable for the person who wasn't a billionaire, let them learn.

SPEAKER_11 1:32:42

Well, Tom, I appreciate what you're trying to do in letting people know how much a vital part National Airlines was of PANAM's history and the experience that National was able to bring to Pan AM, and PANAM became even greater than it already was as a result of the experience that it acquired through the people at National. They were already great, they just became greater. And I think everyone at National felt the same way. They felt great pride in Pan Am. And yes, there might have been some tough days in the very beginning, but I think everybody just grew to love Pan Am and being very proud and still are proud to have been involved with and worked for Pan Am and we all became one big family. I agree with you, Mary.

SPEAKER_09 1:33:32

Captain Mark Pyle, who flew the last Pan Am flight, a lot of people don't realize that he started with National Airlines. So the last Clipper pilot started with National. Thank you everyone for your time. It's been a pleasure having you on the Pan Am podcast. We hope that uh you stay safe and warm and hope to uh talk to you again soon.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:55

Thank you, Tom.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:56

Thank you, Tom. Thank you very much. God bless you, each and every one.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:59

Me too. Bye-bye. Thank you, bye-bye.

SPEAKER_15 1:34:03

Watch us shine, watch us shine. We know the sunshine airline, watch us shot.

SPEAKER_09 1:34:14

Pan Am was a pioneer in air travel and still stands as one of the most iconic and innovative airlines in aviation history. That legacy lives on at the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York, where you can explore the rich history of the aircraft and individuals at the heart of the company known as the world's most experienced airline. For more information about the Pan Am Museum, check out our website at www.thepan Amuseum.org. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. As was once a tagline in one of our commercials, we would greatly appreciate your support to help the Pan Am Museum continue making the going great. You can also support the museum by shopping on our online store for all things Pan Am accessories, apparel, jewelry, books, models, and posters. We want to hear from you. If you have a question for us or want to share your story, our email address is podcast at the Pan Ammuseum.org. We're going to end this episode with a National Airlines song from the late 1970s called Watch Us Shine. As flight crews once said to passengers departing for their destinations around the world, thank you for flying, Pan Ams the sun keeps rising, we keep on rising to To meet the challenge of your days and warm the waves for you.

SPEAKER_12 1:36:04

We give you the feel of sunshine, our own special kind. We're national the sunshine alive. Watch a shine, watch a shine.

SPEAKER_08 1:36:27

We're national the sunshine airline, watch a shine, watch a shine. We're the sunshine airline, watch a shine.

SPEAKER_14 1:36:40

Every face is bright and friendly. Every job is gone with cry. National is lying on the sun is one to help you on your way.