SPEAKER_06 0:14

Welcome to the Pan Am Podcast, brought to you by the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York. This podcast and our museum are dedicated to celebrating the legacy of the world's most iconic airlock, Pan American World Airways. My name is Tom Betty, and I'm the host of this program. Thank you for joining us. The Pan Am Museum Foundation is a nonprofit organization. Please visit our website for more information at the Pan Ammuseum.org. Again, our website is the Panamuseum.org. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. If you are using Apple Podcasts, please consider leaving a review. It will help others discover this program. This podcast is sponsored by the generous personal support of Mr. Adam Arendt, the CEO and chairman of AMC Theaters. He is also president of our sister organization, the Pan Am Historical Foundation. If you're not familiar with Pan Am, welcome. We are honored to have you here and for you to learn about what we're all about. If you already know of Pan Am, worked for or flown on the airline, or just love our history, it's good to be with you again. So with that, let's get this episode in the air, so to speak. Welcome aboard your Pan American jet clipper. Later, we will be joined by two special guests that knew Kathleen well: Wendy Tripp Barr, the granddaughter of Juan and Betty Tripp, and John Ludich, a board member of the Pan Am Museum Foundation, and the son of Mary Ludic, who worked with Kathleen for many years in the Pan Am building. Both guests remember Kathleen at an early age and will share their intimate perspectives on this incredible woman. But first, a couple of announcements. This installment marks the third anniversary of this program and the 50th episode. What better way to celebrate these milestones than talking about Pan Am legend Kathleen Clare and her incredible contribution to Pan American World Airways for most of the latter half of the 20th century? The Pan Am Podcast, an award-winning program, has been downloaded over 145,000 times in 174 countries around the world. As I've mentioned in earlier episodes, this is a passion project of mine and 100% volunteer, and I want to do everything I can to keep the program commercial free. Therefore, to celebrate our 50th episode, I humbly ask each of you listening to make a donation to the Pan Am Museum to show your support for our work. There is a link in the episode description to donate, or you can use your phone and text Pan Am with No Spaces to this number, 53-555, and support this podcast. Again, please consider celebrating our third anniversary with us and mark the 50th episode by donating $50. That's only a dollar for each episode now available to the public for free. There is a link in the episode description to donate to the Pan Am Museum Foundation, or you can use your cell phone to make a donation and text Pan Am with no spaces to 53-555. Again, text Pan Am with no spaces to 53-555 and you can make a donation right on your phone. All donations are tax deductible. We thank you for listening and thank you in advance for your continued support. Now let's learn more about Pan Am legend Kathleen M. Clare, who was the executive assistant to founder Juan Tripp from 1948 to 1980 when she officially retired from the airline a year before Mr. Tripp's death. In retirement, Kathleen remained close to the Tripp family. After the airline ceased operations in 1991, Kathleen worked tirelessly to preserve Pan Am history and was a founding member of the Pan Am Historical Foundation and worked with Juan Tripp's sons, Charlie and Ed, to preserve Pan Am's historic contributions to the history of flight. We will be playing several audio clips from an oral history interview of Kathleen recorded in 2003 so you can hear the history from her first hand. A special thank you to the Pan Am Historical Foundation for allowing us to use these recordings for this program. Kathleen Clare was born on December 12, 1918, to her parents, Ted and Kit Clare, and would later become the devoted older sister of Phyllis and Donald. She graduated from high school in Englewood, New Jersey in 1936 and then went on to the prestigious Catherine Gibbs School for Women in 1937. After graduation, she stayed in Manhattan and spent the next 11 years as a secretary at various jobs. One of the many gifts of Kathleen that became invaluable in her career was her photographic memory. She remembered everything to the finest detail with instant recall. In late 1948, she applied for a job at the corporate offices of Pan Am, then in the iconic Chrysler building. Let's take a listen to Kathleen talking about the first time she met Mr. Tripp at this interview.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

I just went to secretarial school. They taught me how to be a secretary, and I got a job with Pan Am and stayed till the bitter end. I joined Pan Am in December 1948. Mr. Tripp's office had the same wallpaper the whole time he was there. And the same rug. His assistant interviewed me and then he took me in to meet the boss. And he just asked me about three questions. Like, could I stay right then? Which I couldn't, I had a job. So I s uh I said I'd have to give them some notice. He said, How much? I said, two weeks. He said, how about one week? And I said, okay, because he had me intimidated already. Then he said, could I stay right then? And his secretary was still there. See, the reason the job was open, she met a man, and in ten days they were married and living in Brazil. So it was kind of a hurry-up job that he had to get a new secretary. So he called her in, asked her to check me out on the job and take me around the floor and introduce me. And she did that. And then a week later I started. And on Christmas Eve, I had to work until 10 o'clock at night. So I thought I got in with a bunch of heathens and I was about to quit. When um a couple of the girls came back from a vacation in Mexico, all sunburned in the middle of the winter. And I thought, well, maybe I better reconsider. So then I found out that every Christmas Eve was like that. Because uh the trips always went south, and he had to clean up his desk before he left. But uh it wasn't only Christmas Eve. Every night was like that. I was the slave there. Mr. Tripp had an assistant at that time. You know, I wa I didn't march in and take over. It was just, you know, regular secretarial duties. Enter the phone, take the letters, open the mail. His assistant uh was there until the late 50s. He died. And then um I had to do everything. I had to do all the bookkeeping for several of his small companies. He never asked me if I wanted to do that or if I knew how to do it. He just you do it, that's it. He always came in early in the morning and he stayed till about seven or seven thirty at night. Even after he retired. Sometimes he'd get there before I did. I just put my key in the door. And he'd say, Miss Clare. So I thought, Don't forget all the nights you kept me late. In the Chrysler building, he had lunch every day at the Cloud Club, and in this building, he had lunch at the Sky Club every day.

SPEAKER_06 9:47

I'd also like to read you something that Kathleen wrote about one of her favorite people she met. Quote, through our office came hundreds of legendary people, and in my opinion, one of the greatest was Charles Lindbergh. He would use our offices as his New York base when he visited. He was one of the most wonderful people I ever met, very self-effacing. You couldn't do anything for him. You couldn't dial a phone number, you couldn't type anything for him, nothing. He did it all himself. After the war, he worked for Pan Am for a dollar a year. He refused to take a salary, but he said that he would submit an expense report on his first trip to Paris. And he came back and handed me a bill, noting, here's my expense account, end quote. Let's take a listen to Kathleen talking about her memories of Charles Lindbergh.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Lindbergh, during the war, he was out in the Pacific, as you probably know. And uh just about the time I arrived at Pan Am, he came back with Pan Am. But he wouldn't take a salary. But he said he would uh uh put in an expense account. So he did go to Paris on a survey trip, and when he came back, he handed me a bill, and it was uh a rental bill for a Renault. So I said, Well, um where's the hotel bill? And he says, Well, uh uh I slept in the Renault. So he was used to squeezing in small spaces, and you couldn't do anything for him. You couldn't make a telephone call, type a message, nothing. Even one day he wanted to give me his um address and phone number in Switzerland, which was sacrosanct. So I pulled out the index card uh to to type it on, and he took it out of my hand and he knelt on the floor and leaned on my desk and wrote it himself. Couldn't even do that. Oh, he he was simply wonderful. Mr. Tripp and General Lindbergh, they just seemed to understand each other. They had a wonderful relationship all their lives. Lindbergh when uh he was diagnosed with cancer, and the doctors told him he had about two weeks to live. And he had bought a house in Maui, Hawaii, right next to the priors, and he loved it out there, and he wanted to go out there to die. So before he left Columbia Presbyterian, he called Mr. Tripp up to say goodbye, and Mrs. Tripp told me that he sat in his chair there, and the tears just poured down his face for two hours because they had been through think what they'd been through together, you know? Right since well, since Sloineberg came back from Paris. So, no, they were a great deal alike, and they um stuck up for each other all through their lives.

SPEAKER_06 13:10

On his deathbed, Lindbergh asked Mr. Tripp to have him flown back to Hawaii as he wanted to die at home. I'm going to read what Kathleen wrote about this. Quote, General Lindbergh wanted to die at his home in Maui, and Mr. Tripp wanted to send him out on a Pan Am plane, but Lindbergh wouldn't allow it because it wasn't a Pan Am route and would be too costly. So Mr. Tripp arranged to have him flown on United Airlines, where they curtained off the back section and he was there with Mrs. Lindbergh and their son John. An ambulance waited at every stop in case he died on the way, but he made it, and he lived about 10 days after arriving, looking at the Pacific Ocean he loved so much. End quote. Charles Lindbergh passed away at home on August 26, 1974, a week after arriving back in Hawaii, due to the special arrangements his longtime friend Juan Tripp made for him at his request. The close friendship that Tripp and Lindbergh had went all the way back to 1927. In 1929, Juan and Betty Tripp and Charles and Anne Lindbergh went on a trip together to Central and South America. Let's take a listen to Kathleen tell the story of what happened.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

The trips and Lindbergh's, they were newlyweds. They were married in 1928, both of them. They took a proving flight to the northern part of South America. So they took off from Miami in a Fokker F-10. You had to enter that plane through a hatch on the top. And you had a bend in half to get to your seat. It was very small inside, but comfortable. After they got to Trinidad, there were no more land airfields. So they had to switch to a Sikorsky S-38. Igor Sikorsky built that. He built several of our early planes. So they had so much mail. This they had to deliver the mail on this trip. So they had to get at each spot before dark and deliver the mail. And that had to be. It was a requirement that it had to be delivered on a certain day. So they had so much mail they had to split up then and go in two Sikorsky S-38s. And uh the Lindbergs went in one, and they took Charles Lorber with them, who was one of our early radio man mechanics. And the trips went in another, and um Captain Jack Tilton flew that one, and they took William Jarbo, another of our very early uh radio mechanics. So they went all around the Caribbean and then to the northern part of South America, and um when they got to British Guiana, they left so much mail there that they could all go back in one plane again. And then um when they got to Dutch Guiana, they had a big dinner that night, and everybody was speaking Dutch and a little broken English, and Mrs. Tripp was struggling to keep up a conversation, and Lindbergh was sitting across from her and he wiggled his ears. And every time she glanced in his direction, he wiggled his ears. And, you know, it was very hard not to laugh. He was a practical joker. Then they went to Barranquilla, Columbia. There were so many people on the field that he couldn't land, and he dropped several notes asking them to clear the field, but there weren't enough police, they couldn't do it. So all of a sudden, the engine stopped. They ran out of gas. So everybody caught their breath. But he said, Don't worry, I spotted a lagoon over there, so he glided down into this lagoon, and it was in the jungle, and darkness was falling, and they just sat there. Then two Indians came along and with G strings and dug out canoes. Of course they couldn't understand each other, but they put them in the canoes and they were paddling down the river. Lindberg took a revolver with him from the airplane, and Tripp took some snake bite anti-toxin, and they passed a kiln where you bake the bricks, and they told the girls that's where the bodies were roasted. So anyway, finally a roadster came along in the jungle, picked them up, and they went through this muddy jungle trail and finally got to the gates of the city, and there was a big illuminated sign, Welcome Lindy. He was a hero in the backwoods, you know, everybody knew about him. But at Lindbergh, someplace where they were taking off, the uh field was all mud. And he tramped down the field before they took off, and of course his shoes and socks got all wet. So he took off his socks and he tied them around one of the struts and of course they blew off. So at the reception that night he had no socks on. And um also he got out of the plane and stood on the nose to see if he could take pictures from an airplane down to the ground, scared them all half to death. But don't forget, he was only uh twenty-seven years old. Tripp was twenty-nine at this point. But they thought the same. Anyway, it it was 9,000 miles and it took them three weeks, and everywhere they went, Tripp stayed up to Louis Hours talking to the officials about landing rights and airports and whatever he had to, you know.

SPEAKER_06 19:19

One last clip to share before our interview. This one is from a 2011 BBC documentary where Kathleen is talking about something that happened during the Apollo 8 broadcast on Christmas Eve of 1968.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

In December of that year, the Apollo 8 manned mission to orbit the moon departed. As moon fever gripped the world, the guys at Pan Am were presented with a unique opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

It was Christmas Eve. So the question came up who was going to man personnel? Well, the two bachelors had to do it. So there they were, and they were watching these newscasts. So one of them said to the other, why don't we tell them that Pan Am is taking reservations for the moon? Well, they had a cabinet in the office with some booze in it, and I think they treated themselves a little bit because it was Christmas and they had to work. So they did. They called up the channel, so the guy announced it on TV. The switchboard lit up like a Christmas tree.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Well, I have here a reservation for a flight to the moon.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

They thought they might as well capitalize on this a little bit and decided to issue a little wallet-sized card like this. And it's first moon flights club, and it confirms that they made their reservation. This one is number 42,673. The the uh switchboard was jammed for days, which wasn't too good, you know.

SPEAKER_06 21:05

In December of 2018, Kathleen celebrated her 100th birthday with family, friends, and many Pan Am colleagues. A little over a month later, Kathleen M. Clare died peacefully on January 26th, 2019, after 100 years of engaging life on her own terms. She is missed by her large extended family, the Tripp family, colleagues from Pan Am, and friends from her long and well-lived life. Now on to our interview, it's my great pleasure to welcome two very important people. The first is Juan and Betty Tripp's granddaughter, Elizabeth Tripp Barr, who also goes by Wendy. Wendy, welcome to the program.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

Nice to be here. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_06 22:10

And the other person is John Ludich. John Ludic serves with me on the board of the Pan Am Museum Foundation, and he's also the museum curator. And John's mother, Mary, worked with Kathleen Clare for many years in the executive suite of Pan Am, starting in the early 1940s and retiring in the early 1980s. John, welcome to the program. Thanks, Tom. I'm glad to be here. Wendy, let's start with you. I know Kathleen Clare was very special to you, and I'd like to thank you for agreeing to come on this program and share her stories and your memories with us. I know this is deeply personal, and by doing this interview, you are sharing an incredible gift to those who are listening today and into the future. This podcast is a humanities and history program. What we do is explore 20th century history through the prism of an American international airline and tell the stories of the people with a connection to that airline, Pan American World Airways, founded by your grandfather. So let's start with talking about your grandparents, Juan and Betty Tripp. Can you tell us a little bit about them and how do you remember them?

SPEAKER_03 23:28

Well, you know, sort of in the big picture of their life and what they accomplished, my window, you know, was pretty small and at the end. And my grandfather died when I was 14, and my grandmother died, you know, a year later. We all say of heartbreak. And I d I say that not to minimize because my time with them was quite lovely. We spent a lot of time with them. A lot, many weeks in the summer, spring vacations, Thanksgiving, lots of Christmas time. My mother's parents sort of got the short end of the stick. Those were more like day trips to Long Island, but you know, the bulk of our time was a lot of cousin time and a lot of time with them. You know, they were both incredibly frugal. Like going out for dinner was was not on in the cards, you know, just for the heck of it. I think they obviously had to do a lot of state dinners and, you know, whatever he had to schmooze and do his thing. But most of our, you know, we had a lot of time around dining room tables. So my memories, you know, are I mean, I can't underscore how beloved they were, especially my grandmother. She adored him so much that we adored him, you know, sort of like not as an afterthought, but like, because he was busy, you know, he was often in the den behind a closed door on the phone, or there was some kind of a meeting. And then as he got older, he was tired. There was a lot of long naps on the couch and things like that. So he had a very good knee and a very big belly. So, like hanging out on his lap was, you know, a plus and always kind of a drag when you got too big and had to hand it over to the next youngest one. You know, it was like, okay, now tell me about school and let's what are you doing about this sunburn? And let's talk about Grenada, not like any war or anything, but you know, we had the past, so we went to a lot of different places, but always, you know, standby. It was not very um glamorous for us as kids. We were always standby and we'd have to like look adorable. We weren't allowed to open any carry-ons until we actually got a seat. And then when we finally did get a seat, we were like, I'd be like five years old and sitting next to a stranger because that's what was available, you know, because we were we were traveling at peak tourist time. Yeah, we didn't get it, we didn't get special treatment. But you know, the storduses were so sweet with us, and I think more in terms of like my grandparents, um, I didn't think of them as who the rest of the, you know, as founder, as as which I think is why I'm so attached to Kathleen. Like I I didn't see them in the sort of broader sense of what they accomplished. The three of them, my grandmother, Kathleen, and my grandfather. Because, you know, my grandmother and Kathleen adored each other, they were very loyal. Anyway, so from my standpoint, you know, it was like around the dining room table, and you know, my grandmother slurping up the green goop out of a lobster and me being like, that is so disgusting. But her joyfulness about it was like, you know, there was a lot of joy, despite like a ton of heartbreak that they handled with a lot of dignity and a lot of compassion and truly sort of role models and how to carry on and make good choices about how to approach something. They were very thoughtful people.

SPEAKER_06 27:11

As time went on, and you and Kathleen became closer in your early adulthood. When did you start realizing that your grandfather had this incredible legacy?

SPEAKER_03 27:23

I guess it was when I saw the commercials on TV. You know, and kids at school would say, like, oh, I saw the Pan Am commercial, and other other people knew. I have to say, you know, I didn't think about them in those terms. And that's, you know, until much later. You know, when at my grandfather's funeral, which was very formal and jam-packed, pilots in uniform, I realized that there was something far bigger than my my family with him. I mean, I I knew it conceptually, but I didn't really realize. So that experience was pretty intense for me. I think I what was I, 13 or 14? And that was a window into it all. And then, you know, my father still worked there. When I graduated from college, I we had lost, long lost the past, but my husband, well, I wasn't married to him yet, but he had gotten all these frequent flyer miles and we flew on Pan Am. And of course, the people on the plane didn't really know me or anything like that. But when we landed in in uh Nairobi, uh we had to interact with the office there because they lost something in our luggage. We had backpacks, they lost our sleeping bag. And I think the first inkling that not only was he head, but he there was a following.

SPEAKER_06 28:45

What year was that?

SPEAKER_03 28:46

That was 1989. I know that doesn't sound like it's it's sort of very bifurcated. You know, I knew it, but I didn't really know it. And I was also very determined to forge my own way, separate from Pan Am. You know, I sort of wanted my own identity outside of it because at that point, you know, he was getting a lot of criticism, a lot, a lot of criticism. And, you know, I was a freshman when they gave up the United Roots. And I and I got to go on that 50th anniversary trip through Guam and Wake, and that's the inverse Hawaii, that hopping across. So I learned a lot then, but you know, it was all very wistful at that time. And I didn't know whether to think of him as like this great man or this failure, to be honest. You know, that was sort of a weird thing. And because the world was was not kind to him. You know, they said that he didn't groom a successor, they they blamed a lot of it on him, and I know now that he was out in '68. I mean, like he was out so early. Like I now understand that that that narrative was profoundly more complex. But, you know, at the time it was just mostly sad and not embarrassing, but just sad. I mean, seeing Lockerby was like such a visceral thing for me. I mean, for everybody, but like to see the Pan Am logo mushed up, it was so metaphoric, I thought, in so many ways.

SPEAKER_06 30:14

This is a great conversation and provides great insight from a totally different perspective that you bring. Let's uh talk a little bit about Kathleen Claire a little bit. John, if you can give us some insight in your relationship with Kathleen.

SPEAKER_05 30:30

Kathleen says she remembers me when I was five years old. Uh, I guess I took a few uh trips to the Chrysler building, and my mother probably showed me around. But um when I was in high school in 1968, I had a summer temp job in the mailroom in the Pan Am building. And the job they gave me was to deliver and pick up mail at the various ticket counters in Manhattan. But in between, um I would help uh deliver mail to the floors uh in the Pan Am building. And the first time I met Kathleen was delivering mail to Mr. Tripp's office, and he had just retired uh a few months previous to that. This was I started in July 1968, but uh I remember I remember being in Mr. Tripp's office. Uh, and but uh Kathleen did not know who I was at the time, and I was not going to introduce myself. So, anyway, that was my first introduction. And then um my mom and Kathleen were close friends, and Kathleen and a few other women from Pan Am K to my dad's funeral in 1996. Now, Kathleen was one of the founders of the Historical Foundation, and she and my mother and a few others were making weekly trips to the storage facility in Montville, New Jersey, where all the other documents were being stored from Pan Am after the company folded. So my mom continued her re relationship with Kathleen. My mother was like the social director after Pan Am folded with these women, and she would organize Christmas parties every year in the Sky Club at the top of the Pan Am building. After Pan Am, I was working for New York City. I had a career in law enforcement for about 30 years, from which I retired. Uh and um anyway, I was collecting pictures of airliners, you know, having grown up with Pan Am and having flown all kinds of airplanes as a kid, I just collected pictures. I have a I had uh starting in the 80s a slide collection of airliners from all over the world. So anyway, I asked my mother, uh, do you think Kathleen has any pictures of Pan Am aircraft? So she calls Kathleen and Kathleen says, have John come over. So Kathleen lived in an apartment still all those years in Stuyvesant Town, which is a uh a very middle income development, which my daughter now lives in too, uh uh on First Avenue and between 14th and 21st Street, I think, or something. So anyway, I I come to her apartment, she opens the door and she goes, John, I remember you when you were five years old and stuff. So, anyway, in her apartment, she had kept the archives of Pan Am photography of all these aircraft and Pan Am people in binders on her shelves, and her apartment was still all Pan Am. That this was uh about year 2001. She was involved with the historical foundation, she was still corresponding with all of the people associated with Pan Am. That's that's all she lived for, you know. And at that time, my daughter was a toddler, and she was always asking about how my daughter was and stuff. So anyway, I started bringing home uh a few of these binders at a time, and I would bring them home and I started scanning them. And it I turned it into a project where I rescanned and recaptured all these photographs and we put them in a CD. And probably over a period of a year, I did this. So um I would visit her like every couple months or so, and uh we would sit and talk and about these photographs and about Pan Am. And it was it was wonderful, you know. We really were like a family, you know, and she was like my aunt, and our relationship continued. We correspond with mail, she would tell me about books and authors and offer her uh criticisms of any particular book. Um the last time I spoke to her, I I told her that my mother had passed away, which was uh 2015. Being with her was like being part of Pan Am, it was like being it still in the seat of power because these women at Pan Am, I I call them the grand arms, you know, because that they wielded the power of their bosses in the Pan Am building when Kathleen spoke. You you obeyed.

SPEAKER_06 35:29

Wendy, tell us a little bit about your special relationship with Kathleen. Since you were born, Kathleen has been a part of your life in different levels.

SPEAKER_03 35:40

Well, everything that John said just makes me smile. It wasn't my my relationship, it wasn't that different. I mean, it makes he conjured her in very lovely terms, and I completely concur with everything that he said. Um, and as for me and my relationship with her, she was a fixture. You know, she was a fixture in his office. I think the grand dames, as John talked about, was a hundred percent understood by me that she was very, very important. I knew that she was very important. She was also a fixture in the sense that it was sort of like, call Miss Claire, she'll know. Kathleen got us our tickets. Or the new the new timetable came out yesterday, and Kathleen put it on your desk. Like it was always, you know, she sent a telegram to to GAPA, and now he knows that he should be blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, like she just and I think there were two phases with her, which I think mirrored my experiences of her as well, which was in the early years, they were moving. It was one thing after another, and it was really all about that office and everything sort of emanating from that, and her having a very big role in it. And there's some very funny stories about me and how the whole idea of her was sort of incorporated into my psyche. But I think, you know, after we lost the pass and my father left Pan Am, which I was like in the middle of sixth grade, it's not that I lost track of her, but I'd see her at weddings and christenings of planes and funerals and I get in company parties, you know, in the early years. They used to have this yearly Christmas party at my grandparents' apartment, and she was always there. So, but my relationship to her, as I said, really was and of course I we she was Miss Claire, period. She was never Kathleen. She was Miss Claire until she was 99 in my eyes. I finally started calling her Kathleen. But um just as my grandfather was the boss, and she called him the boss at age 100. So my connection to her really shifted after my father died. From that point on, that was in 2017. And I had recorded my father, and I uh as he was sick, he was sick for a long for two years. And as he got further along, I sort of turned on the tape recorder, and I had this sort of like fascination with my grandmother's brother, Edward Santinius, who had a sort of remarkable career in his own right. And that opened up that that recording made me realize how profoundly little I understood. And I was horribly sad when my father died. So, you know, Kathleen was a proxy for everybody who had gone on to this other place, but that had been so important to me, but I didn't, I didn't really ever understand it. So she was the window and the connection to these people that I adored. But as I got older and I older, I realized I didn't really know. She was, she lived it, you know. I mean, she she truly her life was dedicated to Pan Am, to my grandfather. And I you have to realize that she was 20 years working, working, working, working, working. But after 1968, when they went upstairs away from all the hubbub, it was really more about his life and his and much more of his personal exploits, of which there were many, you know, like there was Bermuda and all these things. So, I mean, it's not that she didn't know us early on, she did. She knows she knew everybody's name. She met my uncle when he was like five, you know, like she had sort of kept track of us, but I think the deepening of the connection I suspect happened later once he had retired. I think that the things that stood out for me, I saw her as just remarkably orderly, even as you know, an older woman and calm and very judicious about you know what she was going to talk about and what she wasn't. I think there's secrets that she took to the grave about a lot of things, including presidential stuff. She had a direct line into the White House a lot of times. And my grandfather, you know, was a creature of habit when the phone systems changed. He wanted her answering the phones and getting patched in. So anybody who called him, he never had a they never had a direct line in. So she was filtering and talked to everybody who he talked to. So they, you know, they were they were a team. I mean, he was, she was, this sounds negative because it's not it's not really how it went, but she was a his shadow. I mean, she went where he went, in at least in the in the business context. You know, so her I guess what I'm trying to say is that her EQ was like uh as important as her photographic memory.

SPEAKER_06 41:07

She was a witness to history. And in all her interviews, she talks about your grandfather and the Pan Am legacy and the Pan Am history, but she rarely talks about herself. And what I am trying to do with this program through the two of you is to kind of introduce our listeners to Kathleen Clare and talk about her life. Because I think that's the missing piece when you look at Pan Am history. Kathleen Clare is there and she's talking about Pan Am history, but we really don't know much about her. And I'm hoping the two of you can kind of fill that gap a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 41:50

I'll just say that she never married. She was always single, and she was dedicated to Pan Am. And in a way, she was married to Pan Am. And you and I, Tom, were so involved with the museum, still with Pan Am. Do you imagine what it was like being involved with the real Pan Am as it was happening? So I I think she was totally dedicated as a professional woman.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

I guess I would say that she was equally as dedicated to her family of origin, which is partly why I think she remained single. And she was extremely dedicated to her. Lisa wasn't her niece technically. I think the grandmothers were sisters. It was sort of a smaller family, you know, because her sister, her middle, her the middle child died. But I learned that those relationships were certain were very important to her and filled out a part of her life that obviously was very dedicated to Pan Ann. But I would say that there was, you know, there was a little bit more balance there, especially after my grandfather went upstairs in '68. But that's not even true because in the early in her early years when she first started, I think she was pretty dedicated still to her own nuclear family.

SPEAKER_06 43:14

Let's talk a little bit about that. I know she sure shared a lot of stories with you. Before this interview, you mentioned walking across the GW Bridge as a third grader riding in a Model T to Cape Cod as a middle schooler, for example. Can you tell us a little bit about the younger Kathleen Clare through the stories that she told you?

SPEAKER_03 43:35

Yeah, they were so much fun. So she lived uh in New Jersey. You know, people forget that the George Washington Bridge was not there. I mean, Manhattan, if you wanted to go to Manhattan, you were taking a ferry. The George Washington Bridge was, you know, a massive span. It was a massive project. When it was done, it was a big deal. And so, because she lived on the town, sort of like Like very close to the GW bridge. Her her third grade class was invited, I think before it even opened, to walk across. And I think probably to convince people that it was safe and everything else. Which by the way was part of Pan Am's thing too, which I think people forget. Like people were scared to get on airplanes.

SPEAKER_06 44:23

And this is like what, 1931? That sounds about right.

SPEAKER_03 44:27

She was born 1918. So probably, but anyway, she she thought that she loved that story. You know, she used to say, like, they would go to Cape Cod to see some of their relatives, and and you know, getting their I don't know whose Model T it was, and maybe it was her family's. Her father had a pretty good job, airplane fuel, and I forget the name of the company now, but they'd hightail it to Cape Cod and the Model T, you know, which is like not like driving on 95, right? Like so that was fun.

SPEAKER_04 44:59

I think there is a picture of it too.

SPEAKER_06 45:01

Her father died when she was in her late teens, correct? And that had a profound impact on the rest of her life. Can you fill us in a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_03 45:12

She was the oldest. She had a little sister who I it was about you know two and a half years younger, who died when Kathleen was four, which I guess is its own story. But I guess the point is that she then had uh a brother who was significantly younger. So when her father died, I'm not he must have on some level known that he was gonna die. I'm not sure, but and I can't remember how he died. I think it was a heart, some kind of heart issue. And you know, the the the technology around that was was incredibly limited, you know, around healing people with heart issues. So there was a real financial crunch when he died. His his her mother didn't work, family stepped in in the beginning, but he had taken her at a pretty young age going to Catherine Gibbs, signing her up, finding her a place to live. I think she was at like, you know, the Barbazon or something, because you know, young women had to be chaperoned. She says, like, that's that was the beginning of her life. So from there, when he died, she went to work. She was pulling in the money for that family. You know, they did have family here and there, and you know, they they were okay. Uh, and her mom, I think, was, you know, semi, semi-wrecked by the loss of the daughter. I gather, not like Kathleen much at all. You know, more fragile, more old-fashioned, more some level wounded. So I think she had a huge uh responsibility to towards her mother, too. And I think there was a real tension because I think her mother thought that Kathleen would marry. It was 48 when she started working for Pan Am. So, you know, she she did a bunch of other jobs before she landed in my grandfather's office. There was a boy next door that she could have married, and her mother wanted her to marry, and she did not. And I think that was because her father had signed her up and, you know, was relying on her to keep things going. And people didn't talk about that, right? It was just your duty. And I would say that in addition to the photographic memory and stuff, she was an incredibly dutiful, quietly strong in the way that a lot of people were, in addition to being incredible and incredibly independent. And you know, that I think my grandfather and she were like in lockstep in that, in in kind of their values. The airline industry is seen as so glamorous, and it was especially in the 60s and early 70s, it was, and even later on, I the glamour of it was the allure. I think that was partly to get people onto airplanes and partly because it was all new. And let's see the next Apple iPhone, you know, it was kind of that kind of thing. But at heart, I think that they were both dedicated to this sense of duty. Kathleen used to laugh, you know, when the government called, he was like bolt upright and doing his thing, you know, like it he was very patriotic, she was very loyal to country. So this idea that, you know, that they were living this glamorous life like everybody else was just, you know, not he, my grandfather was like so puritanical. There was lots to get done. There was not a lot of glamour in it for them. She was incredibly committed to her family too. So, and as was he, he was very committed to us.

SPEAKER_06 48:35

So this is a good segue to play a clip of Kathleen. In this clip, she is talking about how calm and collected your grandfather was, and then we'll we'll get your insights and reactions. So let's play this clip.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

Yeah, but you never uh knew whether he was particularly pleased or displeased. I mean, if you did something really stupid, he didn't mention it, you know, like I sent him to London without his passport. Never even mentioned it to him. Absorbed everything. Disappointment as well as it's a good thing. It was always the same. He was not moody at all. You know, every generation produces a certain amount of geniuses. And he never he never used profanity.

SPEAKER_06 49:34

Except Alec Baldwin playing playing in the aviator. Any reactions to that clip?

SPEAKER_05 49:44

That's amazing because I you know the airline business running Pan Am must have been incredibly emotional. And my mother told me there was a lot of anger and profanity and stuff that she had to endure. But Mr. Tripp being level-headed as he was, I mean, it makes sense because he was just with the single vision and just kept on his vision of the airline. It's uh interesting.

SPEAKER_03 50:16

I think that I would add that, I mean, I I would completely concur with what Kathleen said. And it was true of my grandmother, they were problem solvers. So anything that came up, it wasn't focusing on what had gone wrong or whatever. It was sort of like, oh, well, what are we gonna do about this? I mean, he was just profoundly thoughtful.

SPEAKER_06 50:38

How does it feel to hear her voice after all these years?

SPEAKER_03 50:42

So much fun.

SPEAKER_05 50:46

John? Very emotional, you know. I had a lot of conversation with her. You know, at the museum, they we run the uh the video of uh of her explaining this uh the 747 story, and I hear her voice almost every time I visit the museum. So, but uh I never get tired of it. You know, I I should say, you know, that Mr. Chipp's level-headedness, his staff, I I mean, he had the best people, uh, his vice presidents, uh, people like Gates and Gray and Leslie, I mean, uh Sam Pryor. I mean, it's just, you know, he hired the best guys and and uh he knew how to work with them.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

And he trusted people, he empowered people. And so I think he never felt like he was alone in any in any kind of problem-solving thing. Like, I mean, he had my grandmother, he had Kathleen, and he had this cadre of people who he did not micromanage. I think my sense was that he always knew what was going on and and directions would change. They'd come into his office and he'd like parse it through, and he would put the marching orders would change, not like in any kind of dogmatic way.

SPEAKER_06 52:01

And that there's this incredible sense of teamwork and loyalty to this day with PANAM people that I think started with your grandfather. Let's take another listen to a clip of Kathleen Clare talking about why she and her colleagues loved her job at Panam, and then we can talk about your insights.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

Well, it was the excitement of uh exploring the world and and pushing the envelope on the next uh airplane. And uh I will say the main thing was the people we had to work with. They were wonderful people, and when you went in there in the morning and closed that door, you knew you would see nothing but wonderful people all day long. Very important. It was not the salary that kept them. Everybody was underpaid, including Trip himself. He took 20,000 salary out of the company up until the 60s. Then the board insisted he'd take more.

SPEAKER_06 53:05

Wendy John, what do you think about that clip?

SPEAKER_03 53:09

Oh, it's definitely true that he didn't take a salary. Yeah, I mean, it makes me think like I go back to like the glamour thing. Like they were, they were working it, they weren't necessarily enjoying the fruits of it. You know, I remember the story of Kathleen, you know, she did have this cadre of female friends and they would make a plan, you know, to go to Kenya or to, you know, she went, she went all over the place whenever she got a minute, which wasn't very often back then. She'd be like with her suitcase under her, under her desk, she'd be ready to go, you know, for the late flight, and something would come up like regularly, and she'd slip it back under her desk. You know, like they were they were just dedicated to each other. For my grandfather, it was always about like if we can facilitate the speed of this, how will that ripple? It's got to ripple in a good way because trade will happen quicker, people will know each other in different ways.

SPEAKER_06 54:10

John, anything trigger you listening to Kathleen about your mom?

SPEAKER_05 54:16

Yeah, it when you Pan Am was really the first worldwide airline, and and it was part of history, and to be plugged into that, uh, it must have been thrilling. And both in your professional life and business and in your personal life, if you wanted to take you know a vacation or a leisure trip to Africa or to your airport, wherever you you wanted to go. I mean, it was a it was addictive. Uh it was quite a life.

SPEAKER_03 54:46

It was a moment, and she was very, very conscious of it being a moment and that it was a moment to savor and a moment to not miss.

SPEAKER_06 54:57

Wendy, did you ever travel with your grandparents?

SPEAKER_03 55:00

Yeah, I traveled with them a lot, but only to the places where we all gathered as family. My cousins traveled a lot more. I was sort of on the younger end of it. They, I think, were like, okay, we've been there, done that by the time I got around.

SPEAKER_06 55:14

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 55:15

Um, we really were focused at home with them.

SPEAKER_06 55:19

It's a very interesting perspective. Let's pivot back to Kathleen. So I understand that in her later years, in her mid-90s, she found romance. Can we talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_03 55:31

She had romance along the way, I think with one per person in particular. And I saw pictures of him, and but that didn't really that that couldn't go anywhere, really. When she finally moved up to Rhode Island to the assisted living place. And she got there, you know, she stayed in New York. If I can't cross First Avenue and one walk signal, then that was my signal to leave. And she stayed on there as long as she could. So she meets this nice man and they completely hit it off. Her sort of description of them hitting it off. She was like, Well, it just felt right. We just had lots of things to talk about. And and so then everything was so matter-of-fact with her. So then we decided, you know, to move in together. So they they lived together. It was a really nice place. So, but they there was like the sort of independent living where you had your own apartment and your own car and everything else. And then there, you know, as you got older, you went to this other place. I visited her in the other place, but but if I was with her, you know, close to six o'clock, there was the phone call, you know, because after a while they had they were they were living together. I forget for how many years. And it was her first time living with a man, and she had a ball, she had a ball. She's like, Oh my gosh, you know, maybe I should have done this sooner, you know. Like, and but he started having some kind of an issue, and his kids were like, You need to be closer to us. So they they took him out, but every day he called. They checked on each other every day, and he was the one who called her. It was very sweet.

SPEAKER_05 57:08

That is very sweet. I was unaware of that story. I'm so glad that happened to her.

SPEAKER_03 57:14

Um, I she's much more complex than she she was, she was dedicated to Pan Am and to my grandfather, yeah, and to everything there, but she really did have she had a richness in her life. I think my parents understood because they saw her so much. They lived in Florida together, and you know, she adored her brother. And I got to know her extended family, who was very devote. They were very devoted to her because she had been so devoted to them, especially her. She was very involved with the children. But because her sister died, she was a nervous wreck with little people. I mean, just a nervous wreck. But, you know, she was always at their graduations and weddings, and if there was some kind of drama, she was very well aware of it. And she was a huge multitasker. You know, your brain must expand when you're juggling, you know, 50 million balls in the air. And that's what she did for most of her life up there in that office. And, you know, she wasn't the only executive assistant. I mean, in the or in in the height of it, there were like four people outside of his office. Some of them came and went, and what one of them was my grandmother's brother, who was secretary of state, he died young, and his assistant was this man whose name, because I'm not like Kathleen, I don't remember his name, but he was, you know, there were a lot of male secretaries back then, and he was an incredibly competent uh male secretary. And my grandfather took him in after um my grandmother's brother died. So he was sort of part of the central team as well.

SPEAKER_06 58:49

Are there any funny stories that she shared with the two of you that you would like to share with our listeners?

SPEAKER_03 58:57

You know, when she first had that interview, she was brought into the office, you know, by a friend who was running some kind of employment agency that Pan Am had hired or something. And so then it was all sort of like happenstance and rushed, and she already had a different another job. And she started working, I think it was December, right, of 48, and and uh right around Christmas time, and they were, I think it was like Christmas Eve, and they were like grinding it until like 10 o'clock at night. And she was like, What a bunch of heathens! Like, what have I gotten myself into? And I just I always think that's funny. I think another funny story, it's not really funny, but it it's emblematic of her. She went and got her hair done in exactly the same style as my grandmother, in exactly the same style as lots of other women of that era. She had like this shocking white, beautiful hair. And she went every week to the hairdresser. And kind of like my father, when my father couldn't shave by himself, he was like, This is my dignity, and if I, you know, and and and Kathleen used to say she sort of equated it with vanity or something like a little bit of vanity is a good thing. But I think really what she meant is that self-respect and dignity are characteristics that you really want to try to embody. And I think she embodied them. And I think that's why I say, like, male or female. Now the pay thing, you know, that's another funny story. Her talking to my grandfather about pay raises. But you know, since he was getting paid 20, 20 grand a year, like her I for I have like picked pieces of paper with her letter to request a pay raise, and and then you know, their conversation and the paperwork that followed it.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:51

Tell us a little bit about this.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:54

Well, and it just is what it is. I kind of already said it. Like, you know, he was the boss, and I think it's she's obviously right in that you you know, you didn't really know what he fully thought, and he was always, you know, contemplative and considerate.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:11

She did end up getting a raise, it wasn't, you know, a lot. So was that a gender thing? Probably, but I don't know how much uh the male secretaries were getting. I don't know. I think another funny story is like somebody, you know, my grandfather would get asked to be on boards of different companies, and at one point he was on the board of some tobacco company, and you know, those tobacco companies knew full well back in way back when that they were not healthy and they they buried that information. And he he knew that I think he he didn't stay on those boards for much for very long, but he Kathleen used to smoke in the office and he walked in and he did the look and didn't really say anything. She stopped smoking.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:04

So he must have had a look that everybody knew, didn't have to say anything, but oh yeah, I knew it too.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:10

We all knew it. I mean, like, you know, if we used up all the if all the cousins used up all the hot water in the outdoor shower, that was that was not okay. It was not okay to talk to him when he was reading the papers in the morning. And also he sitting around the breakfast table and the not so much lunch, but breakfast and dinner was you weren't wearing a baseball hat. It was all very loosey-goosey and it's a lot of laughter, friendly, and not like you know, yeah, you had to be like there's this funny picture of my dad, I think on his wedding day, and and he's leaning over my dad is in a chair, and he's like Dapa, my my grandfather's like, I mean, so profoundly serious. He was a serious dude, he was a very serious dude, and Kathleen was too, she took it very seriously, the whole expedition. Very, very serious, serious uh approach, and you know, I think that propelled the commitment and the sense of duty.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:10

So both of you knew Kathleen. How would you describe her and how would you like her remembered?

SPEAKER_05 1:03:16

Wendy, the way that you phrased the the um the way in which Kathleen performed her job and and being a role or not being a role, but what's most important is the her dedication, uh, I think to what she did. I mean, she was in 110%. And I think uh that is the uh uh the lesson or to give to young people, as you said. Um, whatever you do, uh everybody's different, but whatever you do, make sure that you are in it entirely, you know, and don't let it pass. But um, you know, she she was so well informed and um smart. And uh, you know, we didn't she came from Catherine Gibbs, which meant that the uh the span of her role, you know, she probably started wearing white gloves and she had to to to give Mr. Tripp a cup of coffee every morning and clean his glasses or whatever, in addition to to all of the other major duties that she had. But uh, you know, she was uh a woman of her times. She is to be looked up and you know and and praised for that.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:36

Yeah, I would I would concur. And I think part of that was she really didn't think about what other people thought. Very independent person.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:45

And I think that she sort of, I mean, I've said this before, that she sort of embodied and believed that you know, service to others and to the mission at hand, whatever it was, was its own reward. And she, you know, she just worked, she was a tireless worker. I think she was kind, she should remember being remembered for that. She was, you know, dignified, she was loyal, she was full of joy. She was all about not having regrets in life. She didn't seek out the limelight. I think she should, as I think I've alluded to, she should be remembered to her commitment to her own family and extended family. And certainly I remember her for her commitment to our family.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:29

One of the questions I ask a lot to our guests is why is the Pan Am story important to history? And to my delight, that question was posed to Kathleen. And I have a recording that I'm gonna play, and then we can talk about your reactions after we listen. Let's take a listen.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:53

I think this is an important story because the 20th century was the century of flight. Starting in 1903 with the Wright brothers and the development that went on from that day until now are unbelievable. In in Truth's day. You had to be, you know, Sam Pryor used to say about him that he was the best lawyer, diplomat, finance man, engineer, all rolled into one. Which you had to be in those days to run that kind of a company. Now it's all cut and dry. It's almost like running the Greyhound Bus Company. Almost not quite, but um I know that he he would have found a way. I never saw him get upset about anything that happened. He was so calm. You could drop a bomb in front of him and he'd finish dictating the letter, you know. He was very calm. And he seemed to understand the reasons for everything, and I feel myself that if Tripp had, you know, been able to live forever, the company would have survived because I know he would have found a way. And one way we had hard times before. And he always just tightened the first strings. I mean really tightened the purpose and we pulled through. He always wanted uh aviation to be available for the average person. That was the main theme running through his career. And he changed it to a great extent. His gift was vision and being a jump ahead ahead of everybody, he could see what the result was going to be before it happened. He just could. I consider him to be one of our 20th century geniuses, really.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:09

So, Wendy, your grandfather founded this company that changed uh commercial aviation forever. And John, your mother was part of that uh for many years, her service to Pan Am. And Kathleen Clare was also there for many years. What are your reactions to what Kathleen just said?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:34

Uh yeah, it was the uh the century of flight, and one trip pushed the envelope as far as he could. Uh and he was responsible for long-range airplanes, you know, with passengers that could carry cargo and and passengers and and meals and spread uh American um way of life, I think, to the rest of the world. I mean, how he pushed Martin and Boeing and Pratt and Whitney and and uh I guess you know, and and he was he was at he was at the vanguard, he was at the at the very edge, and everybody had to follow suit. Uh it is an incredible story. And I I don't know if the aviation industry today would be the same without Montreux.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:30

Yeah, I mean I would I certainly didn't see this, you know, as a as a college student, but now that I've done so much research on my own and in concert with talking to her and I would say that I've never taught this or articulated out loud, but I I think that the thing that he did and I think it was in part because you know the government was behind him and he was bound to serve. But I think that the evolution as he propelled it it could have gone really differently. And I I think that you can think about it in modern terms of sort of like you know, the beta versus VHS. There was this like conflict in the beginning with a lot of new technologies that made it longer and harder and more complicated because there weren't synergies. I think that's true of the train industry for sure in this country. You know, I think he was just uh he was a big picture thinker and he had uh he had an idea of what he wanted it to look like and he could execute on it. I mean, he was a pilot himself, so I I think he loved the challenge of and the evolution of of not just the planes, but of the technology all the technology around it and everything else that was around it, you know, supporting the hotels, like you know, he was like a private equity firm managing all sides of it before there was private equity, you know. Like, I mean, he had flight, he was and he set sent people off do incredible things, like the the guy who went off to do flight safety, and like you know, the guy who went off to lead intercontinental hotels, and the guy who went off to China to to work on uh CNAC and like you know, or Avianca, you know, I don't think that certainly didn't become very lucrative, but you know, he was a lot of his work was schmoozing foreign dignitaries to get runways put in and sort of to say, like, you too can have your own national airline and you too can be a part of this, and here we'll help you fund it. And again, this was not a lucrative thing. I mean, like Pan Am was flying empty planes all over the world, but our country wanted runways and and access to a lot of different places, and he was not gonna not do that if the government wanted that. He had an idea of how this he wanted the story to end and he propelled himself through that. I don't think that he would have had uh any idea, or he would he from above now, as a you know, as a dead man, if he could have seen it all. I think it would well, Kathleen used to say, Oh, he would have figured it out, it would have been fine, it all would have changed, it all would have been different. And I think that she I think that's you know, glorification of him. And you know, every people get older and they're just not as effective. Although she did make fun of him for being so like to the government. And it's certainly at the end, you know, he my mom used to say, Oh, poor GAPA, he's sitting in that senator's office. He was sitting in that senator's office for six hours, but he didn't care if he looked like an idiot, he had something to get done, you know, whether he was like 79 and a half or you know, whatever. And he certainly went until the very end. I mean, he had a stroke and that was it, but he he he was had his hands in everything until the very end.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:59

And and the people he chose uh were instrumental in accomplishing his uh his dreams.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:07

Yeah, I would certainly concur. The idea that it was, you know, all him is uh you know, and he gets a lot of he gets a lot of flack for having lackeys around him. You know, that was the talk, you know, when I was growing up, and I you know, I fundamentally I don't think I believe that. I think the story about Lind the stories about Lindbergh too are sort of emblematic of not caring about what other people think. Like both Kathleen and he just like they had they they didn't care.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:42

Well, I would like to thank both of you for sharing your memories of Kathleen. And as Kathleen would say, this has been a swell interview.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:51

Well, thank you. This was really fun. I enjoyed getting to know John better, and um, it was way more fun than I thought it was gonna be, and it was a pleasure.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:59

I'm so glad that you did this, Wendy. I'm glad to be here and part of this, and uh it was fun for me as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:06

So thank you so much for all your efforts with these podcasts. I did finally listen to a few two, and they're really fun. So I encourage everybody else to like listen to more of them.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:17

So and thank you, Tom, for presenting this and the way that you do these interviews and podcasts is just extraordinary. So thank you. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:26

Yeah, thank you, thank you, Tom. It's it's an act of love and fascination and interest. So kudos to you. Kathleen would be very proud.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:35

She would say swell. Thank you very much. Pan Am was a pioneer in air travel and still stands as one of the most iconic and innovative airlines in aviation history. That legacy lives on at the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York, where you can explore the rich history of the aircraft and individuals at the heart of the company known as the world's most experienced airline. For more information about the Pan Am Museum, check out our website at www.thepanammuseum.org. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. As was once a tagline in one of our commercials, we would greatly appreciate your support to help the Pan Am Museum continue making the going great. You can also support the museum by shopping on our online store for all things Pan Am accessories, apparel, jewelry, books, models, and posters. We want to hear from you. If you have a question for us or want to share your story, our email address is podcast at the Pan Ammuseum.org. As flight crews once said to passengers departing for their destinations around the world, thank you for flying, Pan Am.