SPEAKER_01 0:14

Welcome to the Pan Am Podcast, brought to you by the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York. This podcast and our museum are dedicated to celebrating the legacy of the world's most iconic airlock, Pan American World Airways. My name is Tom Betty and I'm the host of this program. Thank you for joining us. The Pan Am Museum Foundation is a nonprofit organization. Please visit our website for more information at the Pan Ammuseum.org. Again, our website is the Panamuseum.org. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. If you are using Apple Podcasts, please consider leaving a review. It will help others discover this program. This podcast is sponsored by the generous personal support of Mr. Adam Aaron, the CEO and chairman of AMC Theaters. He is also president of our sister organization, the Pan Am Historical Foundation. If you're not familiar with Pan Am, welcome. We are honored to have you here, and for you to learn about what we're all about. If you already know of Pan Am, worked for or flown on the airline, or just love our history, it's good to be with you again. So with that, let's get this episode in the air, so to speak. Welcome aboard your Pan American jet clipper. We also welcome back to the program our good friend Becky Sprecker. Becky has been a frequent guest and contributor to this podcast. She'll bring great history into the flying boats of the 1930s and insight into Pan Am's legendary passenger service to this episode. From June 16, 2025 to June 28, 2025, Pan Am returns to the sky for an exclusive journey for 50 intrepid voyagers aboard a luxurious and modern private 757 aircraft with Pan Am livery. You heard that right. There will be a Pan Am plane with a Pan Am logo on the tail back in the air. This exclusive trip, called Tracing the Transatlantic, will follow some of Pan Am's original flying boat routes across the Atlantic Ocean with stops in New York, Bermuda, Lisbon, Marseille, London, and Foins. Let's learn more about reliving a golden age of travel by listening to a minute promo about this incredible trip.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

For most of the 20th century, Pan American World Airways ruled the skies, shrank the globe, and led the way an evolution of commercial aviation worldwide. Nothing compares flying aboard a Pan American flight. Glamour, premium customer service, traveling to far-flung, exotic locations to define the allure of Panair. Set the standard for the industry. Join this unique celebration of the Pan American World Airways legacy, tracing the transatlantic race. Take this chart of aircraft from JFK to Bermuda to USA, to Lisbon, to London, to Ireland. All in become a luxury and company. We've been doing this for almost 10 years, traveling the world on a private aircraft. It's the only way to see the world. It's the best way to see the world. Come and join us.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

For more information, visit CriterionTravel.com slash Pan Am. There is a link in the episode description to this website to learn more. This trip is certainly a private air journey for the ages. Founded in 2015, Bartlings was incorporated to provide discerning travel companies access to extensive expertise and knowledge to create incredible and exclusive trips for customers. Bartlings has been involved in the operation of a variety of tours by privately chartered aircraft to all corners of the globe, from small 12-guest tours to larger groups of 250 guests on a private 747. Their aim is to create unique experiences throughout the world, allowing guests to connect with other cultures, visit incredible sites, both natural and man-made, and to develop a deeper understanding and appreciation of the world we all inhabit. Our guest Gary Bartlings grew up in the Netherlands. His original career plan was to study at hotel school. However, he changed his mind and wanted to broaden his education to tourism. He started his travel career in 1987 with Qantas Airways in Amsterdam after completing his education. During his career, he has been involved in everything from telephone sales to aircraft dispatch, brochure production to contract negotiation, crisis management to tour managing, public speaking to PR relationships, and so on. Having had the privilege to travel extensively around the world, he believes there is no better way to connect people and cultures than through understanding, acceptance, and respect. The best way to achieve that is to travel, to visit, to interact, and to learn. He has a passion for travel in all its shapes and forms. He has explored Asia donning a backpack, drove a classic car through southern India to raise money for charity, and at the other end of the scale, visited famous monuments of humanity traveling by private jet, and each experience strengthens his appreciation of the world we live in. Thank you very much for coming on the program, Gary and Becky. Gary, let's start with you. I'm reading your bio and it says, Born in Nigeria. Let's start there.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

Oh, thank you, Dol. It's uh it's an honor to be on the program and uh uh to and to be able to talk to you and Becky today. Um you're right. Yes, I um I was born in Nigeria uh a long time ago now. Um my uh my father was working uh in Nigeria at the time, and uh so uh my sister and I were both born there, but it was only for a short time. We were there for about uh four years before we returned to the Netherlands because I'm a Dutch national. And I guess you can say that was my first flight. Um and uh that stayed with me and eventually I ended up in aviation.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

What airline was that, Nigeria to the Netherlands? That was uh KLM.

SPEAKER_03 7:48

KLM uh Dutch Royal Airlines. And of course, uh uh I I later on in my career worked for Qantas Airways, and the two airlines, funnily enough, um always used to compete with who was the first proper airline. Was it Qantas or was it KLM? And KLN at the time always used to say, Well, we're blue. We had the first choice because the sky is blue, we flew in the sky, so it must be KLM. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

So that's the bug of travel was when you were four years old. Tell us how that kind of grew.

SPEAKER_03 8:21

Bug of travel, and and later on in life I realized it was really my mum, sadly, she passed away, but she was the real traveler between my my parents. Um and when I when I grew up, I was actually most of my life, um, my younger life, I lived in the Netherlands, of course, and family holidays were within Europe, not so much flying, because flying was considered expensive in those days, and I'm talking in the 70s, and uh a lot of it was was driving, because in uh living in the Netherlands, you jumped in a car, you drove to Italy or France to go on your annual um vacation, uh, as you would call it in the US. And uh um, but that that's I always was bewildered um and intrigued by travel. Uh always found it fascinating that you can go to a different country here, a different language, and those days had a different currency and uh fascinated me. And as I grew up and um had to make a decision, I I thought I was going to go to the hotel school because that sounded a bit cool. Um uh they weren't that interested in me. And so I thought, well, actually, tourism is a bit broader. Um, there's a bit more uh different elements to it. Let's let's get into tourism. And that's what I did. I started tourism. And uh and then my very first job was in aviation. So whilst I liked flying, I was sort of I wasn't that familiar with it. Um, but as many people have said to me since once you start an aviation, you can't let go.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

I'd just like to add to what Gary said that once you get the bug and you go places, when it's wheels up, you know, and you get that excitement of we're going someplace new, we're gonna learn someplace new, it it never leaves you.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

So, Gary, you you now work for the travel industry in your earlier days. Tell us a little bit about where you worked and also tell us about your first Pan Am flight.

SPEAKER_03 10:13

So um I I started my uh my travel industry career with CODS Airways in Amsterdam, and they um uh they contacted the college I was studying at, I was finishing, and they were looking for people to join them. And uh, of course I was as clean as they come, but they said come and work for us in in Amsterdam, which I did. Um, and I worked with them for two, just over two years. Uh, it was an online station at the time, Amsterdam, had a once-a-week flight, and of course that was in the late 80s. Um, and the uh the aircraft from uh it was going to go to Sydney, but it basically stopped everywhere and saw light. Um, it was um non-stop flying in those days really happening. So, from recollection, it went from Amsterdam to Frankfurt, from Frankfurt to Bahrain, from Bahrain to Singapore, from Singapore to Sydney. So it was a real milk run. Um, but um I worked for them with enough for with them for a number of years. At the same time, a friend of mine who I studied with tourism studies, he started with Pan Am. Um and he worked with Pan Am in the ticket office in in Amsterdam. Our officers weren't too far away from from each other. And of course, as you do at that age, you you catch up a lot and you go out and have a few drinks. And we used to talk about our experiences because, of course, um new into to work, it was it was just fascinating to to learn from each other. And I always remember he's he's still a good friend of mine. Um, and he's very excited about what we're doing with with Pan Am. And he always used to say uh Pan Am is just different. Um, and he had nothing to reference or compare it against, but he just said it's just different, uh, Pan Am. And uh so he worked there for a number of years. I then, after my first year in Dossiers with the Airlines, actually don't know if it's still the same nowadays, but after your first year, you were able to apply for um discounted tickets, which of course one of the perks uh traveling for an airline. And uh and I had this fascination, I wanted to fly, I wanted to travel, so and I wanted to go to New York and and I wanted to go to Hawaii. Hawaii had been on my bucket list, if you call it that, for I don't know how long, probably since I saw the first program of Magnum PI, would you believe it? I want to I want to be there, I said. Um so um so I I I got my discounted tickets, and in those days there wasn't really a lot of things like taxes and security taxes, so I don't think I paid a lot of money for that at all. Um, and I flew to New York. My uh my mum had a half-sister living there, so I was meeting her, it was the first time in New York. Uh it was I was blown away with all these experiences, and then I flew from New York again on Canaan to um Honolulu, but via LA. And there I had my first experience of being offloaded, being a non-revenue passenger. Um, and of course, I'm bringing my ideas and I'm going, so what do you do now?

SPEAKER_01 13:01

Um and so for our listeners, let's talk about what offloading is because we've all been there. My uncle worked for Continental and then United, and uh we're all ready to go on a trip. And let's talk about what offloading means for sure.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

Okay, well, so offloading, um I'll tell you, it's one of the most scary experiences you ever have if you get on a plane, I think. Um, because you just don't know that this is going to happen. Um, you're you've been assured it's gonna be okay. Uh and I'm on the plane and I'm flying, and I knew it was gonna stop in LA, but so what? Um, I was checking to go to Honolulu and LA in LA, they came up to me and they said, Oh, sorry, so can you come with this? And it was uh, I'm sorry, that the flight was really full. And I think another airline had maybe cancelled um a service to Honolulu, so she had to come up and um you've got to come off the off the aircraft. And I said, What do I do now? I said, Well, find another one. And it was like, okay, what about my luggage? Yeah, that's still going to Honolulu, we can't take that out. So this is me, I was bringing my ideas and I go, what do I do now? So I actually I ended up phoning the office in um in Amsterdam at the time, and my supervisor then pulled a few strings here and there. And I think I ended up on United. Um, and and then arrived then in Honolulu and then had to go and look around for my for my luggage. But um, offloading is not a pleasant experience, but hey, you didn't take it check it, so I think you just have to take it.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Sure. And also when you actually get on a flight and it takes off the the door shut, then you're like, okay. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:37

And you stand out. Sorry, you you you stand out because um in those days it'd be different now, I'm sure. But you're always told you've got to dress up. So you turned up and suit and tie, you know, sort of like and the rest of the people just sitting there, you they're looking at you going, that's weird. Um, but you had to.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

Yeah. Uh I remember in 2001, my uncle wanted to take us all on a trip, my whole family, and he was gonna take us to Zurich. So we get to the airport, and I tell everybody, you know, I take time off of work and I tell everybody, oh, I'm going to Zurich. And then we get to the airport, and the president uh at the time was uh going to Europe. So all the flights were were were sold out. Um, and he says, Oh, well, we could always get on the flight to Tokyo. Uh, does everyone want to go to Tokyo? So then so then we're we're going to Tokyo. We had a fantastic time, but then I get back and everyone's like, Oh, how is Zurich? And I said, Well, we didn't go to Zurich, we ended up going to Tokyo, and people are people are like, What are you talking about? How how do you do that? So, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

For the Pan Ammers that are listening to this, the term that we use was subject to load.

SPEAKER_03 15:48

Subject to load.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Subject to the load. And uh, you didn't have computers in those days to know how many bookings they had, so you had to ask the counter or call on the phone, and they would say, you know, you're sublowing it doesn't look good. So that struck terror in our hearts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Oh, and then you would wait around and you you could see all the non-revs because they're all dressed up and they're waiting in the back, like intently waiting. Every time the the ticket agent would get the microphone, uh, this is it, this is it. But once that door shut, you felt like you hit the jackpot.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

Yeah, and then as you say, you're waiting at the desk, and then uh they say, Well, just sit down, but then somebody else walks up and starts talking, and they're smiling and they're laughing. You go, Well, did they know? And I don't know. So yeah, it wasn't good.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Oh, yeah. She's getting she's getting her friends on the flight, they're gonna pump us.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

Exactly. Absolutely, yeah, brilliant. But yeah, so that was my my first time with with Pan Am. And then actually I flew with them again because a year later in Amsterdam, at some travel event, I can't remember what it was now. I actually won a price. I won a prize to go to uh with Pan Am to St. Martin in the Caribbean, which of course was overly exciting. Um, and I was gonna go with a friend, and literally, I think a month before it was that year, it must have been, I don't know, 1989 or so. The um they had a really bad weather and the islet was half destroyed, I think. Um so we we couldn't go to St. Martin. Um and Penn was very helpful and said, uh, well, where do you want to go? So we settled on Way Abbey uh and we flew to Florida, had never been. Uh flew to Florida and we we rented a car and drove around, and it was it was an amazing trip. Um on that return flight, again, my friend wasn't in the industry. Um, and I said to him, Oh, we need to dress up, and he was looking at me a bit pubbled. I said, No, you need to dress up for this flight. We haven't paid for it. We need to look, we need to look right. And I still have a photo somewhere, us standing outside of Miami airport dressed up in the heat with a tie and a and he looked really uncomfortable in it. Um, but we went to the desk and it was all fine. We got the seats, I think it must have been a higher category because it was a prize-winning seat or whatever. And then as we got on, they said, Oh, you've been upgraded. And we went to business, well, it's a business class at the time. Um, and that was just like, this is amazing. And my friend thought I was, you know, I knew the world and everybody was, you know, I was I was in with the right people. It was amazing.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Uh Becky, any travel stories you'd like to share about flying non-rev?

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Well, like Gary said, traveling was very expensive. And I flew in the 70s. I was working for Pan Am in the 70s. So we picked out the farthest flung places that we could think of, the most exotic, the most out of the way. We probably wouldn't ever get there again if we had to pay for the ticket. They were very helpful to the employees, the staff that was on duty. They were very helpful to the employees. But nevertheless, it was a nail-biting time and uh when you were waiting to be called uh to get on board. But uh boy, when you did and you got your trip going, it was just so incredibly exciting to be young, uh, to be that age that Gary's talking about. And uh, you know, it really gives you the bug.

SPEAKER_03 19:08

Oh, I totally agree, Becky. It's uh it's and it's a way of uh if you look back on it now, you sort of go, that was actually quite a lot of fun. At the time, of course, as you say, it was nerve-wracking. But you went to places, you had the ability to go to places that many of your um your friends who weren't in the industry would just go, how do you do all that? Um, and then once you got the taste for that, as you say, you got the bargaining, you just you can't leave.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Very true. So Becky and I did an episode, episode 51, and it was uh titled Crossing the Atlantic in 1939 and making history once more. And what Becky and I did was explore uh some of the first flights of crossing the Atlantic Ocean with a Boeing 314 flying boat. In July of 2024, Travel and Leisure had a headline, and I'm gonna read it. Pan Am is back and is launching a luxurious transatlantic private jet trip next year. So let's talk about Pan Am coming back in the air. I can't wait to see this plane with Pan Am livery on it. Um, Gary, why don't you take us off? And Becky, why don't we talk about history while Gary is talking about this trip?

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Fantastic. Well, let me do a few steps back to um because people would be interested in why we wanted to do this. Um and also the fact that we've actually started the process of this this idea of of doing a a trip that celebrates the Pan Am Legacy. Um way before the pandemic. Um we started talking about it internally. And um it was late 2019 that we got in touch with the museum. And uh we spoke to to Lynn Lefraya at the time and discussed our plans and incredible support um we received with the idea. Um, and of course, also uh a huge dose of of realism. Can this actually happen? Um can you make this happen? Will this work? Um and and of course, then the whole world stopped um with COVID. And to be totally honest, I I think all of us um in our business thought, well, that's probably the end of that. Um, you know, the the feeling of momentum might be gone a little bit. Um what do we do once this is all over? And who knows when it's over? What are the are the priorities going to be? And um it was only in twenty three. Um Um, that we said, okay, let's pick it up again. Do we still want to do this? Yes, we do. We think it's an exciting idea. Let's work on it again. And that's when the process started of developing this idea. And of course, the um the Pan Am legacy is so considerable that when you sit down and say, well, what what are we going to do? Where are we going to go? It's um there's so many choices. Where do you start? And um we felt that it's uh a celebration of of what Pan Am stood for should start with some of the things that they were quite incredible at. Um and that was just getting on with things and getting it done. And the transatlantic tour is a real um, I guess, testimony of that, because it was also for us okay to say, well, we're gonna continue with it. Um like Pan Am said, we're gonna fly across the transatlantic to Europe. We said we're gonna do this tour. Um and that's why we came up with it. It's uh it's it's historical. Uh the flying boats, uh, which particularly in those days, I mean, that was just extraordinary. And and even more so because, of course, after the war, um, after the war had finished, the the the whole rise of the flying boats reduced significantly, um, because you know, part runways on on land became the the way of flying. So so to to celebrate the the uh flying boat uh history, I think was uh was a really important part for us. And with that, celebrating the legacy of Pan Am.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Well, Gary, I'd like to add here that this crossing the Atlantic truly made Pan American an international carrier. They were already in the Pacific, but the Atlantic had the most difficult weather and it was the most challenging to design equipment could cross this large expanse of ocean. But I'd also like to remind listeners that they are living in this history every day when they take a flight, because it was during the days of the flying boats that Pan Americans styled the boats in a nautical fashion. And so you used the terminology, you had a captain who was the head of everything, you had the port and starboard, you had galleys, and all of those um all of those terms are still in use in aviation today. And that started out right here with Pan American during the flying boat era.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

So, Gary, why don't we talk a little bit about this incredible opportunity in this in it sounds like an incredible trip. I wish I could afford it, tracing the transatlantic.

SPEAKER_03 24:47

Thank you, Tom. What we what we did was we looked at, as I said, we looked at some of those um as as Becky calls it, pivotal moments. And um the transatlantic uh was, and the history behind it, and I'm sure Becca can can talk more about is the the the the this desire by von Tripp at the time to open these roots. The um I guess the reluctance of the British in the time because they wanted the the Brits to be the first one going the Atlantic, but it just seemed, without having ever met the guy, but having read a number of books and done the research, it just seemed one of those really determined individuals. And um so when we started to look at that, um we said, okay, well, there's a there's a wonderful itinerary uh here for a touring experience. And I'll come to that touring experience in a minute, but if I look at the itinerary, say there's a wonderful itinerary here that will take us to Europe, but it would probably be rather uninteresting to go back the same way we can. Um so what about combining that with the second journey that was um created, which is the northern route. Started with the southern route, then the northern route, and combined them and we'll make it a round trip from New York. And that's exactly what we did. Um and I do always uh highlight the point that um the itinerary is is inspired by those uh transatlantic uh routes, both south and north, um, because some of the destinations possibly less interesting nowadays. Um, for example, um the one trip Sun Ed uh suggested that perhaps Bermuda would be something that added a bit more flavor to the itinerary than, for example, the Azores. Whether it's true or not, I don't know, but we created it around Bermuda. Bermuda, of course, being one of the flying boat destinations. And if you then go to the northern route, um the um the flying boats used to end up in Southampton, but in the UK that's probably less interesting than going to London um and um and learning about what the uh operations were for Pan An. But one of the things I really like in this itinerary, uh one of the many things I like, is um going to Foynton, Ireland, um, where they they have a replica flying boat. Uh it's it's the only one of its kind in the world. Um I visited the museum um and extremely passionate um owner, uh Margaret, uh showed me around. And lo and behold, you're on the estuary where the flying boats used to land. Uh, the control tower is still there and part of the museum. And that is that's the final overseas stop on the program. And I think extremely fitting um and a very special experience.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Sure. If I can interject really quick about foines, because Margaret was one of my very first interviews, episode three, titled Flying Boats, Irish Coffee and a Hollywood Star. And my my personal travel plans, I haven't made it there yet, but I have every intention of going there. They have a full-scale replica of the Yankee Clipper. Everything is meticulously replicated from the original down to the finest detail. I can't wait to get there. And also, Margaret has a challenge for me about how many Irish coffees I can drink before I'm drunk. So uh, so she's a lovely lady and it's a wonderful museum. Uh, we call it one of our sister museums in the Pan Am family, and I can't wait to get there. So I just wanted to interject really quick to talk about the Foines Flying Boat Museum um and how it's awesome, and I can't wait to get there.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

I I actually think it's it's wonderful that you say that you see it as a sister museum because the um the passion that Margaret has uh for what they're trying to do in Foins is, and I you I will use the word replicated, is is exactly the same as you find at the Pan A Museum in Long Island, I find uh over the years that I've um both been in in touch and communicated uh with Linda and others, uh including yourself, but also the visits to gala. And every time I come back uh from a gala, and I've done three now, I think, or now um every time I come back, and uh my colleague said, What was it like? I said, It's just you just have to be there to understand the passion for this aviation brand. Um and I was there for the life that that the last gala we had the operators of the aircraft called the tour, which I wanted to come to, um uh attend the gala as well. And and they said to me, said, This is just extraordinary. And I said, It is. I said, I've never come across anything like it. So I want to step back to the tour because it's one of those interesting scenarios. Uh, our business has been doing this for for almost 10 years, creating itineraries, touring itineraries by using a private aircraft. We've never used another brand. We've done it for tour operators. Um, we have their own idea about what a tour is all about. Um, this is very different because here uh I I've I've said it to um to Linda before. I feel an enormous uh level of responsibility to ensure that the experience on board is as close to what people expect it should be if it's a Pan Am operated aircraft. And of course, things have changed over the years, new laws, regulations, things that you can and you can't do. Um, but I'm really excited that I think we're getting very close to delivering something that hopefully will get a tick of approval from people that know Pan Am. Um in way of catering. Um, we are actually going to have the crew in Pan Am uniforms, um, and the aircraft will have Pan Am branding on it. And I think it will be so exciting in that sense. So whilst the tour so often, when we create tour, is about the destinations, it's about the hotels. I think this one just sort of knocks it over and says, well, actually, it's so much more this time. It is also about the experiences that the people will have by flying this aircraft. And uh, and I think that's very exciting. So that's why I wanted to mention it about the tour. When you say, where is it going? Well, you're going to all these wonderful destinations, you're going to say some great five-star hotels, but it's so much more than that. It is really being part of history where a pen and branded aircraft will do a journey of some of the destinations that they used to go uh very regularly. And I think that's really exciting.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

It is. Becky, let's talk about the southern route. Um, so this trip is going New York, Bermuda, Lisbon, in Marseille. Uh, can you talk a little bit about some of the first flights across the Atlantic with the Boeing 314 flying boat?

SPEAKER_00 32:19

First of all, I just wanted to build on something that Gary said. Um, you not only will have this fabulous onboard experience and the Pan Am see being on a plane that's in Pan Am livery, that's just and everybody's gonna be watching this. I know the towers are gonna be saying special things to the pilots as they're taking off. Welcome back to the skies, and you know, things like that. But uh the fact that you are flying back into history, you're reimagining for the future, but it's not only aviation history, it's also world history. Because uh these flights started up in June of 1939. And you have to remember that Hitler invaded Poland the first of September. I mean, that was barely after this got going. And over time, this this route, this uh southern route, you know, became a lifeline for people trying to escape uh, you know, out ahead of the war, uh, and they were trying to get out of Lisbon. So this is part of this whole history that all of the passengers are going to learn as they're staying in great hotels and uh being served great food on board an airplane. But in terms of the routes, it depends on the days of the week, just like it is today. Airlines have certain routes that and certain places they go depending on the days of the week. And also during the the time this it was seasonal, during the times of the year when the harbors in Canada weren't frozen, they could go up through I think it's um Shedtiac in Nova Scotia and then up to Botwood in Labrador, and then they would go on and cross the North Atlantic and go over to Foynes and then on into Southampton. That was the northern route, and so sometimes it was weather contingent, and sometimes they'd get fogged in and they'd get stuck in Shediak for a few days, and so the whole thing was when it worked, when the weather was good and cooperated, it was great. But the southern route had far more reliable weather, and that was sometimes they flew out of Baltimore, sometimes it was New York, sometimes they stopped in Bermuda, but generally speaking, they always stopped in the uh Azores, and then they went on into Marseille, to Lisbon, rather, and then to um and then to Marseille. So uh the first you know proving flights were in uh May of 1939, right, Tom? They had they were carrying the mail and FAA officials just to make sure that everything worked right. And then it was in June when they actually had this uh very um fun and fancy uh press flight where they uh had members of NBC and ABC um set up equipment for a live broadcast in the tail suite of the aircraft. And Tom, you have audio of that, which can listen to.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

And our listeners can listen to episode 52. It's with uh Becky and I, and we cover this in great detail, and you can actually listen to the NBC broadcast.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

But you had uh, you know, quite a few reporters from the news services on on board, and then that one was followed by what June 28th, I think was the gala passenger flight, and that was one Juan and Betty trip and the Vanderbilts and and all of the dignitaries that uh that that took that trip. So it was the southern route that uh both of these trips flew.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Gary, back to you. Let's talk about some of the details, the exciting, luxurious details of each of these stops on this wonderful trip.

SPEAKER_03 36:22

So she you probably know we um we're starting to trip in in New York, and um the the first hotel we're gonna be using, uh, fingers crossed is the world of Astoria, um, which of course in its own way has an enormous uh amount of history uh and legacy. Uh and I say fingers crossed because they gone through an enormous refer. Um and they keep telling us it's gonna be okay, but um they haven't opened yet. So um we are working on a number of plan B's in case it all goes uh Petong, as they say. But yeah, we say we arrive in in New York, everybody will arrive from their different destinations and and get welcomed uh by the group. We have a welcome dinner where we talk a little bit about uh the plans for the uh the 10-day trip uh ahead. And then we go to to New York Airport. Um we um we're currently working, I won't tell too much, and people get a little bit excited, but uh we're working with um JFK at this stage um about the the send-off uh uh from uh from New York. And um we are also talking uh Becky mentioned them earlier at Wilt Wings um to see what we can do with um retired or previous flight attendants to join this send-off. And I think uh you've alluded to it. Uh I think there'll be a lot of interest in this uh happening um from a press point of view, but also just from the public's point of view. Um have an aircraft parked at JK JFK Airport with the Pan M branding on it. Um will get people asking questions and and not just aviation people, but people in general that remember the airline. Um and and then we we take off. And I expect, um, aside from the experience we're having, I expect that um the uh community of plane spotters um will become a bit of a mouthpiece for this journey because in all of these airports, there will be um plane spotters seeing that, and that it will go through that community uh like a wildfire, I think. But it will it will be something that people will pick on very quickly. So we, as I say, first stop Bermuda, Lisbon and Marseille, then London, Point, and back to New York. We have two night stays everywhere, and um that means you can relax a little bit, but we are going to keep going because you've got a lot to see and a lot to do. So uh each each destination we'll go to. We're trying to include something that is uh Pan Am memory history. Uh I'll start with the first one in uh Bermuda. We'll have uh an ex-flight attendant and potentially the ex um station manager from Pan Am joining the group for dinner one evening um and talk a little bit about what it was like. Um so we're trying to um ensure that in every destination we have something that reminds people of Pan An. But at the same time, we're also aware that not everybody will be totally aviation geeks, and there will also be people saying, Well, I'm doing this because I want to have a nice experience, a nice vacation. And there will be a lot of Pan Am experiences on the aircraft as we speak. But that's that's what the plan is for the different destinations. Then what we've done is that one of the big buzzwords in um travel nowadays is personalization. And of course, for anything to do with a group, that becomes actually quite a challenge. Because how do you personalize an experience for a group? Um, but I think it's really important because when you put a group of people together that have never met before, you know, potentially have 50 people traveling on this trip, some people will like A, others like B, others like C, and others like to do absolutely nothing. How do you cater for that? Because part and parcel of such a journey is the experiences that they're gonna have, they're gonna talk about and uh want to enjoy, getting people to do things they don't enjoy don't tend to work. So, what we've done at every destination, we're giving people options. So you have an option to go on a catamaran to cruise the waters of Bermuda. You can go with the town crier to learn about Bermuda's history, and he's quite a character, I must say. Um or you can go and meet one of the locals who talks about some of their um uh cottage industry approach to to growing things. It's there's some fascinating things. You go through, and I'll I'll I'll just I'll jump on a number of destinations before um I'll I might go back on it, but because there's a number of things I'm really excited about. Um we get to London, and I think for most people outside of Britain, and I'm I'm sure it's the same Americans, um, is a fascination with the British royal family. Um, and of course, you have part of that royal family living in your country at the moment, if he's allowed to stay with the new administration. But um uh so we're going to um Kensington Palace before it opens for anybody else. We'll go to Kensington Palace and see the palace. It's um Kensington Palace is the home to uh to William and Kate. And uh so we're gonna have the time. I was um I was very lucky earlier this year at a uh last year, sorry, at a at an event. I was I had an opportunity to walk around the palace, and it is quite extraordinary. Um so we're gonna have time there before anybody else arrives to go and look around. And then that's then followed by a uh like a morning brunch style thing. And we're gonna have a uh presentation by an ex-royal butler to talk about etiquette in the British household. And I think that sort of stuff is just what adds flavor to an what is an aviation experience and an aviation um commemorative journey to have some other things. And I think that's really, really important from our perspective. I won't tell you what we're doing in Florence, because I'm gonna make you jealous, Tom, if you haven't been yet. Um, but I think it's gonna be spectacular as well at the museum.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Well, I intend to go out and get a lottery ticket, and if I win, then Becky and I are going on this trip. I love it. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

Could I add something here, Tom? About uh Gary was talking about the the etiquette in the um, you know, the royal households and all of that. And I will say that on Pan American etiquette was extremely important because your passengers on these boats were people like Lady Mountbatten and her daughter Pamela, and the Empress of Austria's children, and the Baron de Rothschild and his family, and the French couturier Elsa Chaparelli, and the French automaker Louis Reynault. You know, you're really talking about the creme de la creme of European uh uh society. And so I think deportment was very important, dress for the uh the stewards on board, all of those things were uh were critical when Pan American was getting started.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

I I love that you say that, uh Becky, because I think one of the things that um nowadays with travel, um travel and uh including flying, it's it's become a commodity. It's uh you you fly somewhere because you've got to get somewhere. Whilst back in those days, it was glamorous. Um And I think that was what Pan Am did. They were still an airline that made flying glamorous. And I think creating this program, this tool, is saying it's not just about flying to a place. It's wonderful, of course, because I have this big belief that when people travel, you connect cultures, you connect religion and history. And I think that's a it's a real powerful thing that needs to happen. So we're doing that with the tour, but we're also doing it in style. And we're saying actually flying is going to be a fun experience on this trip. And that to me, and that's consistent through all the programs that we that we run, which are even the ones that are not pan, is when we talk to our clients and say, this is flying how it used to be. That you actually want to go to the airport rather than going, I wish I wasn't going. Um I want to go to the airport, I want to get back on the plane. Of course, in this case, uh with these tour programs, the crew will be the same. So you get to know them. As a matter of fact, we were inviting the crew to join the um the guests on this tour. Yeah, on the first night in Bermuda. So um I've learned over many years it creates a really nice relationship. So when people come back on the on the aircraft, they go, I remember that person, or I had a chat with them yesterday, and it creates a really wonderful bond. Again, it's something that you just don't do nowadays anymore. You get on the plane, you get off. Next time you get on, there'll be other crew. Uh so we'll be the same crew. Uh and they gradually get to know you. They'll they'll talk about, I know that Tom, when he comes on the plane, he wants to have a um a bloody mary. I'll make sure it's ready for him. It's those sort of things that will that will then occur. And I think that that's the difference with these sort of programs, and that's really what we're trying to create. It's it's the the the often used term of you know, travel of a bygone era, but it is a bit like that. It is a bit, um, as as Becky was saying, it is it's something special. Um, and I wouldn't be surprised if if some of the guests will make a real effort to make it special themselves, because it is a unique, it's a historical journey.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

And most pilots don't come back and talk to passengers anymore. I mean, obviously there's the security issue, but uh my good friend Captain Bo Brandt of United Airlines, the flying piano player, he's also he was also a guest on one of the podcasts. He makes it a point, and he said that he learned this from some of his Pan Am mentors, pilot mentors that grew up in his neighborhood. He makes it a point to go and and talk to passengers before and after the flight. And he brings his iPad and talks about the the route that they're going on. That's how it used to be. The pilots would always come back and and socialize with the passengers, and it it was all part of the experience. Becky, do you have any insight on that that you'd like to add?

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Well, you know, I think I don't recall too much of um too much of that. I was usually busy, you know, busy in the galley or getting things ready uh for service, but um they did come down, the pilots did come down and uh interact, you know, with people. And uh they also appeared if there was something that occurred in flight that wasn't supposed to, if some passengers got into an argument or something like that, then he would come out in full regalia. And there was a great deal of respect for that uh when that happened. And a particular incident I'm thinking of, a friend of mine was on a flight going out to uh Guam from Honolulu, and Muhammad Ali was going to the thrilla in Manila to fight the thrilla in Manila, and uh he had brought along his uh mistress and not his wife, but the wife found out about it and booked a ticket in economy.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Oh my!

SPEAKER_00 48:02

And once they were airborne, there was a confrontation that the uh captain had to come out and settle. At any rate, the the the the uh the Pan Am uniforms w had carried a great deal of visual weight because they were designed after a Navy captain and with all the scrambled eggs on the brim and the black jacket, the white you know, shirt and black tie. So that was a direct link to the Navy. Juan Tripp had a great fondness for it uh because he was in the Navy himself. Um, and so when he was styling the boats, they the pilots used to wear these bomber jacket things, but when the boats came out, they went to uh the uh naval officer uniforms.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

And Gary, what's really exciting and fascinating about this trip of yours is kind of a modern take on what Pan Am would be like if it was still flying. Uh, as you said, it's inspired, and that's really, really fascinating. Some of our listeners uh will laugh because I often talk about food. So, Gary, I want to talk about the food on this trip, but before that, one of the things that uh just occurred to me is we haven't told our listeners uh how long, how many days this trip is. If you can tell us kind of the logistics and the dates, and then also the website, and then we can talk about my favorite subject, which is food. Absolutely. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

Well, it's um the tour starts in New York on the uh June the 16th. Um so it's uh it's in about five months' time. We've still got some availability for those that are interested. Um, I'll give you the details on on where to get in touch with us in a moment. Um, we have one night either site in New York, and then we basically got two nights in each destination. So you've got two nights in Bermuda, we're staying at the um Fairmont Hotel in Bermuda, we've got two nights in Lisbon, where we stay in the four seasons in Lisbon. We've got two nights in Marseille, which was the end of the southern route, where we stay in the Socotel. We've got two nights at the Savoy in London, and we've got two nights at Adar Manor in Ireland before you return to um to New York. So the total duration of this trip is 12 days. Um, and uh we have a price, a fully inclusive price, uh of uh just under $60,000 per person. All singles are very welcome. And as a matter of fact, I understand we have a high number of singles um uh on the tour already. We work with our partner in the US, it's a company called Quiterian Travel, and on their website site, QuiterianTravel.com slash Pan An, you can find all the details.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

In the episode description, there is a link to that website to make it easy for our listeners. Fantastic. That's great. So um so foo, do you want to talk about that?

SPEAKER_03 51:11

My favorite subject. Yeah, let's talk about this has been fascinating. So in my um during my last visit to uh to New York when I went to to the to the gala, um, and then the day after that, I um received boxes and boxes of old Pan Am menus. And um and I went through those, and and that was fascinating. A courtesy again of the museum and and Linda, which I'm very grateful for. And I said to her, I really want to see what was done in the past, what can we do in the future, and what fits this the sectors that we fly. You know, what did you do for a short sector, what did you do for a longer sector? And so I went through them, I took lots of photos, and um together with the airline, we're putting together a menu. Um, because a lot of it's it's governed by what's possible nowadays, uh, and also the sector length. But I think they'll do a really, a really good uh job on this. Um, I have been told that we are able to do a caveat service, which I think um Pan M used to do.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

Um, so we'll have a caveat service. For our listeners, Becky is giving the thumbs up on our screen here. We think Becky likes the caveat.

SPEAKER_03 52:22

Um and um, but one of the things I uh I thought was really uh is interesting, and I was reading it. I was just it gives you sort of joy when you read these menus, apart from the fact you you become quite packaged and hungry and think actually I like some of that. Um, but was the um the thing that stuck in my mind, I said to Linda, what was that? And and it said something like a champagne snack. And I went, what is a champagne snack? And it was wonderful with canopies and and it just I loved it. I said, I want to use that term because it just sounds so cool. Let's have a champagne snack on the aircraft. Um say that to my wife, she probably goes and said, Yes, let's have a champagne snack. Yeah. There it goes to sell it.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

Well, I just wanted to ask Gary real quick. I presume that you can take off anytime you want, right? So that these are gonna be at you're gonna take off will be during food consumption hours. In other words, not in the middle of the night where you're expected to enjoy a champagne snack with caviar at two o'clock in the morning, right?

SPEAKER_03 53:27

Exactly. Becky, great, great uh question and comment, actually, there, because of course all our flying is daytime. Uh and and you are right, within within limitations, we we choose our flight times. Um, and generally speaking, that is around meal times. Uh, and on this aircraft and this, or sorry, on this journey, it's mainly around lunchtime. Um, but then you've got a number of fairly short flights. So, for example, I think the shortest flight we've got on this journey is between London and Shannon in Ireland to go to Foines. Um, so that means that either before or after we'll have a uh a meal organized. I think in this case it will be after. So when we arrive in Ireland, we'll have a lunch, but we'll have possibly the champagne snack on that back.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

And what aircraft is this?

SPEAKER_03 54:13

This is a Boeing 757. So the airline that operates it is a division of Iceland Air. Um, and they've been operating 757s for for many uh decades now. And this aircraft has been totally converted into VRP configuration. So it's got 50 Liflat seats in a two-by-two configuration, so it's very spacious. And the one reason we picked this uh amongst many, uh, we picked this particular aircraft, is it's got what they call a buddy seat. Um so if you're sitting in the seat um for takeoff and you want to meet with some friends or um people you met on the trip, or you want to talk to um the tour leaders off the trip or the pilot, the captain comes along, um, there's a seat in front of you where somebody can sit. It's not a lifelapse, it's a proper, just a proper seat. But you can have the table out, you could play cards if you wanted to. Um, you can um you know share photos, um, or somebody can have come and have a champagne snack or or something like that. So it's a it's a wonderful social experience. And I I can't stress that enough because you you go on a plane trip like this, it is really it's a party. It's uh it's a wonderful experience of sharing memories with with with fellow travelers and like-minded people clearly, if you go on a tour like this.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

And Becky, this sounds very familiar because that's how the flying boats were. They were just a party and a social hour, and people would play games and and chat and socialize, and they didn't have headphones back then, and they actually had to talk to each other.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

Right. And they are are recreating the atmosphere that you would have found on board the 314, which was very congenial. Um, the uh lounge on the 314 could seat what 14 for dinner, I guess, but they could they could convert it back and forth from setting up tables for dining and then putting the tables away, and you had a lounge or maybe a table or two for cards and games. Um, and they did two or three dinner seatings um where they would put out a three-course meal. So, you know, that whole sense of almost a club, a club y atmosphere where you go up to the lounge and if you couldn't sleep, see who's up, and uh have a conversation with somebody you've never met before, uh, and you've made a new friend.

SPEAKER_01 56:43

And just for our listeners, a Pan Am fact, Pan Am never flew a 757, but with the Pan Am livery, we can add that to our history after this trip. Absolutely. Love the way you think, Tom. Tell us, I know you're still developing the menus, but tell us, I'll just give us a little taste of some of the unique courses that you are considering either in the air or on the ground.

SPEAKER_03 57:08

Uh, we've got a number of on the ground, if I start with those, we have a number of uh celebratory dinners as we go along. Uh special events, whether it's uh in Bermuda on the beach, um uh or whether it is a uh a high-end uh meal at the museum in Foins and a few ones in between. Um, so it's it's one of those uh scenarios where you think, well, we can do this, we can do this, we can do this, but you can also overdo it. People do want to have the time maybe um just to have a normal meal and have an early night if we're flying the next day. So we're trying to find that balance, um, what we do in the destination, um, also bearing in mind that we really want people to enjoy the flying experience. Now, one of the things that I found when I was looking at those menus is um things like lobster were very high on the list, and the tenderloin, and of course, the old um Chateaubriand being carved at your seat. I try at every angle to make that happen. Um you just can't get on the plane with a knife of that size nowadays, whether it's a private plane or not. Um, but we might have found a way of trying to emulate it. Um, but um, I won't say too much about that just yet, because if we can't do it, then I would be disappointing people. But it's it's that style of of dining. It it is like dining in a in a fine dining restaurant. Um, and that's the way we want to display it, not a an hour line meal as we expect to get it, if we don't have to pay for it and buy it on board. Um, so it is something that it's got to be part and parcel experience. And if you think about the the sectors, predominantly they're quite short sectors. We've got two longer sectors from Bermuda to Lisbon and from Pointsback to New York. Those are the ones where we can really do something special. The rest are quite short. Um, but again, that doesn't mean we can't do nice little touches that make people really think I'm traveling and I'm a traveling pan and style.

SPEAKER_00 59:12

Do you know what kind of champagne you're pouring yet?

SPEAKER_03 59:16

Uh well, we um we have a whole range of options. There's uh what the airline calls their house champagne, which we've said nope, never heard of it, we won't be having that. Um so um they've gone through a whole range of different types. At this stage, we haven't decided. Um and um I I like a glass champagne, so I want to make sure it's good and it's in keeping with the um uh with the Pan Am experience. And of course, looking again at the menu, uh, Pan Am had had different Pan Am champagne brands over the years as well. Um, everything from a Moe to um more like a Bollinger's style champagne. So we'll get something a proper um proper champagne to be part of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

Wasn't Bollinger James Bond's favorite champagne? Um he did fly Pan Am, we know.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

So he did fly Pan Am. It was Don Perrion and Bollinger. So that's it. Yeah, yeah. I think uh I think he went back and forth. So is it wasn't one of the movies uh Pan Amin?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:21

Is it Dr. No? Was Pan Am in Dr. No?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:23

Dr. No from Russia with Love, Live and Let Die, License to Kill. Uh I don't know anything about James Bond, right? Excellent. Gary, personal question for you. So I can hear the passion in your voice about this project. How do you feel about having this enormous responsibility with this legacy of Pan Am that you you are now essentially bringing Pan Am back into the skies in a certain point of view?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:57

Uh as I said earlier, I um I do feel the weight of responsibility uh on our shoulders. And um I uh I have very much driven the point that this has got to be perfect. Um and that's so not so much for for me, but it's more a recognition of celebrating such a celebrated brand, um, if that's the right way to to write it or to say that. Um so there is an enormous weight of responsibility in that sense. Um and all we can do between now and and the journey is to ensure that we we cross all the T's um and make sure that we do as much as we can do uh to make this a memory where people come back off that journey and go, wow, um that would be that would just be incredible if that was a reaction. And an even better, I'd love to do this again. Um we we have other plans uh for Pan Am uh uh journeys in the future, uh, but I think a lot of it will rest on on how it is accepted when we operate it. And it's it's always there's a level of expectation around this, particularly for those people that have um either worked or are strongly associated with Pan Am. And and to all those people uh who are listening to this podcast, I can only say we do our very, very best. Um, will we be as good as you? I I don't know. Um, you were a special breed, um, but gee, we're gonna make this an experience that's gonna be unforgettable.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:34

Becky, anything you'd like to add?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:37

Well, I just think for those of you who have been contemplating booking this trip and you're still sitting on the fence about it, hopefully what you've heard today will get you really, really excited. And you're going to your computers right now to Google Criterion Travel and check it out. But I I just think that uh you're gonna want to bone up on your World War II history, and uh, you know, you're you're gonna want to check out your closet to make sure you've got some really great clothes to wear and uh just make this a celebration of a first class airline, the return to real class and elegance in the skies. And uh you're you're gonna have it'll be the trip of a lifetime.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:25

Sounds like it. And Becky and I are available if you need a companion, um, as long as you're paying for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:31

Well, Tom, aren't you going out today to buy the lottery tickets for us?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:34

Yes. Yeah, that's my backup plan, but I love it. I'll let you know. Um, Gary, Gary, anything you'd like to add about uh our interview?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:45

No, Tom, no, thank you. Um thank you very much. And and and Becky, thank you very much for for adding all that additional information. I think it it really uh supports what we're doing. And um it's been uh from the very beginning, particularly with the museum, it's been uh extremely uh supportive. Um I should also mention the Historical Foundation uh who's uh who's been very supportive of what we're doing. Uh and uh that is that's really um uh fantastic because it it gives you an additional layer of of of um uh I guess support and and interest. And um to say we still have some seats, we'd love to to take some more people. We have future plans as well. And of course, uh it would I would be amiss if I didn't mention 2027 when it's a hundred years Pan Am. Uh and uh we're definitely looking at something particularly special for that year uh as well. And and hopefully, if if this goes well, uh Tom, I can come back at some stage to talk about that too.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:46

Awesome. Well, thank you very much, Gary, for your time. Again, the episode description has the link to this fantastic trip. Becky, it's always a pleasure to have you back. And Becky will be coming more often on uh different episodes in the future. And uh thank you both very much for your time today.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:09

Thank you, Tom. Thank you. Very nice to meet you and um very nice to meet you, Gary.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:15

Hopefully we'll meet again. All right, thank you. Take care. Thank you. Pan Am was a pioneer in air travel and still stands as one of the most iconic and innovative airlines in aviation history. That legacy lives on at the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York, where you can explore the rich history of the aircraft and individuals at the heart of the company known as the world's most experienced airline. For more information about the Pan Am Museum, check out our website at www.thepan Amuseum.org. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. As was once a tagline in one of our commercials, we would greatly appreciate your support to help the Pan Am Museum continue making the going great. You can also support the museum by shopping on our online store for all things Pan Am accessories, apparel, jewelry, books, models, and posters. We want to hear from you. If you have a question for us or want to share your story, our email address is podcast at the Pan Ammuseum.org. As flight crews once said to passengers departing for their destinations around the world, thank you for flying, Pan Am