SPEAKER_04 0:14

Welcome to the Pan Am Podcast, brought to you by the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York. This podcast and our museum are dedicated to celebrating the legacy of the world's most iconic airline, Pan American World Airways. My name is Tom Betty, and I'm the host of this program. Thank you for joining us. The Pan Am Museum Foundation is a nonprofit organization. Please visit our website for more information at the Pan Ammuseum.org. Again, our website is the Panamuseum.org. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. If you are using Apple Podcasts, please consider leaving a review. It will help others discover this program. This podcast is sponsored by the generous personal support of Mr. Adam Arend, the CEO and chairman of AMC Theatres. He is also president of our sister organization, the Pan Am Historical Foundation. If you're not familiar with Pan Am, welcome. We are honored to have you here, and for you to learn about what we're all about. If you already know of Pan Am, worked for or flown on the airline, or just love our history, it's good to be with you again. So with that, let's get this episode in the air, so to speak. Welcome aboard your Pan American jet clipper. In this episode, we'll hear from three veteran and active flight attendants, two of whom worked for Pan Am from 1977 to 1986. Recently I traveled to Japan with two of my good friends, Kimberly and David. We had an amazing trip, and I'll tell you all about it in a bit. But first, I have many updates to share about this podcast and our work at the Pan Am Museum. I know it's been several weeks since the last episode, as I've been traveling and working on a special Pan Am event, so there's a lot of news to share with you. I'll start with a preview of the next two episodes. In our next episode, we'll be joined by Pan Am flight attendant and author Yvonne Condi, and we'll explore Operation Pedro Pan, the clandestine efforts between 1960 and 1962, to send over 14,000 Cuban children to the United States alone by their desperate parents who feared for their children's future under Fidel Castro. The episode following that is with CIA veteran Don DeVito and his son. Mr. DeVito was hired by Wantripp to work directly for Pan Am's board of directors after serving his country in American intelligence. He will share his fascinating stories, so stay tuned. I'm pleased to announce that the Pan Am podcast has won two top awards, the 2025 Platinum Muse Creative Award and the 2025 Platinum Vega Digital Award. We have been honored in the past with awards for this program from both Muse and Vega, but this is the first time we won the highest award possible from them. The Muse Creative team interviewed me about this program, and I've included a link for you to read later. So most importantly, I would like to congratulate the people listening, as none of this would be possible without your support of this podcast. Thank you. On April 24th, 2025, I cut my trip to Japan short to attend an incredible event at the Pan Am Museum on Long Island, the 50th anniversary of Operation Baby Lift, the frantic evacuation ordered by U.S. President Gerald R. Ford of Vietnamese war orphans in the final days of Saigon in 1975. The event was hosted as a partnership between the Pan Am Museum, the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Foundation, and the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library and Museum. Additional support came from the Pan Am Historical Foundation, World Wings International, and Pan American World Airways, LLC, formerly known as Pan Am Brands. What to say about this event and what followed? Only one word comes to mind. Wow. A highlight of the evening was the premiere of a short documentary called Operation Babylift, a celebration of the human spirit, directed by filmmaker Dirk Braun. The film captures the global cooperation and moral courage that define the mission. There is a link in the episode description to watch this film on YouTube. The event's co-MCs, Peter Greenberg, an Emmy Award-winning journalist, and Tammy Gwen Lee, an acclaimed filmmaker, guided the evening with warmth and insight. They recognized the brave Pan Am crews who flew into a war zone to evacuate children, honoring those at the event, flight attendants Karen Ryan, Ingrid Templeton, Pamela Taylor, and Sally Pearl. A deeply moving moment came with the attendance of Al Topping, Pan Am's country director for South Vietnam and Cambodia in 1975. His efforts to evacuate his staff and children became the subject of a 1990 television film called Last Flight Out, starring James Earl Jones. Adding a personal and emotional layer, Adoptee Jared Rayburg performed his original song, Waking Up American, moving many in the audience to tears. At the heart of the evening were the adoptees themselves, those who lived through the trauma, uncertainty, and life-altering change as infants. Devaki Murch shared her story and journey, discovering connections about her past and helping fellow adoptees connect with theirs. Carol Mason read a poem honoring her birth mother, while Twi Williams, now a U.S. Army veteran, gave thanks to her adoptive family, Pan Am and the military members who made her rescue possible. Her decision to serve in the Army was her way of giving back. For several adoptees, the event marked the first time they met someone who may have been on the flight that brought them to the United States. These moments, when an adoptee looked into the eyes of a former flight attendant and saw someone who might have held them as an infant, were deeply powerful. For the adoptees, it was a chance to reclaim a missing piece of their story. For the flight attendants, it was a profound reminder of the impact of their courage and care. The bonds formed that night were emotional, healing, and enduring. Two U.S. congressmen were in attendance and shared powerful reflections. U.S. Representative Mark DeCano spoke of his family's immigrant journey and his advocacy for veterans, while U.S. Representative Derek Tran shared the harrowing story of his parents' escape from South Vietnam as boat people. Both first generation Americans, they embodied the mission's lasting legacy. Trustees Mark Halsima and Karen Scrokoft, representing the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Foundation, spoke with deep admiration for President Ford's decision to launch the airlift and the lasting impact of his leadership. Representatives from the adoption agencies that helped carry out the evacuation, Holt International, Friends of All Children, Friends of Children of Vietnam, and the Pearl S. Buck Foundation were also present. Their dedication ensured thousands of children found safety, love, and a future. The 50th anniversary of Operation Babylift was more than a celebration. It was a reaffirmation of the American spirit. It reminded us what's possible when compassion overcomes fear, when courage takes flight, and when people come together to serve others. Thanks to President Ford in Pan Am, thousands of children were given not just the gift of life, but the promise of hope. At the event, we got incredible media attention, including a special aired on ABC News' program 2020 the week after. Also the week after, I had the distinct honor of representing the Pan Am Museum at an event at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Museum in Grand Rapids, Michigan, featuring President Ford's son Steve and Adoptee Twee Williams. Our film was featured at this event as well. Speaking of our film, it is now being entered into almost 40 film festivals around the world, including Sundance and Con. Pan Am Museum Board member Janice Faya sponsored the admission fees for our application to Sundance. Thank you. So stay tuned for updates on our social media channels. Another update about our YouTube channel, which has now over 20,000 active subscribers, over 300 videos, and 4.4 million total views. If you haven't already, check us out on YouTube and see Pan Am commercials, documentaries, training and corporate videos, and much more. It's the one-stop shop for everything about Pan Am. And the last piece of news to share with you is about coffee. There's a new officially branded Pan Am Coffee available from Expedition Roasters Coffee Company, and it's quite good. There are two kinds available: organic Guatemalan Single Origin, which is more of a medium roast, and Sumatra Single Origin from Indonesia, which is more of a dark roast. The packaging is beautiful and features the Pan Am logo and artwork in a vintage 1950s travel style. I'll include a link to purchase in the episode description. Now let me tell you a little bit about my trip to Japan before our interviews. In short, I've always been in love with Japanese history, culture, people, and food, and this trip did not disappoint. I traveled with my good friends David and Kimberly from Columbus, Ohio. David and I have been to Japan before, but this was Kimberly's first visit. We had an incredible time and visited many temples and shrines, Skytree and Tokyo Towers, and tasted delicious Japanese cuisine. Also, because the three of us are super nerds and members of the 501st Legion, we may have also planned this trip to attend an event called Star Wars Celebration, a three-day convention featuring actors, producers, writers, and over 35,000 fans from around the world in attendance. So that was a ton of fun as well. Our first stop was a week in Tokyo, and then we went on to Osaka via Bullet Train. There were many favorite moments on our fantastic trip, but one in particular I wanted to share with you as it exemplifies the importance of travel and connecting with people. I had one evening to myself as my friends were go-karting in the streets of Tokyo. What I did, I recommend everyone do when visiting a foreign country, and that is to get out of your comfort zone and immerse yourself with the local culture with local people. I discovered an out-of-the-way sushi restaurant that was frequented by locals and where no one spoke English. I also suspected correctly that they rarely get foreign visitors. I opened the door and stood there for a few seconds assessing the scene. The place looked like it hadn't changed since 1950, which was exactly what I was looking for. It was a standard Japanese sushi restaurant with a wraparound bar, with the sushi chefs behind and a glass case in front. I was gestured to an open seat at the bar. Most of the patrons looked at me suspiciously but welcoming. And then spent a few moments observing everyone and was handed a menu, which of course was all in Japanese with no pictures. I pulled out my phone and typed a message to the sushi chef using the Translate app saying hello and to bring me a variety of items that were his favorites. He also gestured to me if I wanted a beer, and of course I agreed. With patience and hand gestures, you can communicate with almost anyone if you put the effort into it and never forget to smile. A smile is a universal way to say hello and break the ice. Anyway, the beer arrived and he started pointing to seafood items in front of me in the case. I gave him a thumbs up to salmon to begin, and he started making me some delicious sushi. I was seated next to a quiet gentleman at the sushi bar and exchanged glances from time to time. What I was really doing is observing what he was eating in case I had to point to it. Soon after, the chef gave me a big piece of fish and I struggled a bit with my chopsticks. The gentleman to my side tapped me on the shoulder and passed me his phone. His screen also had the translator app opened with a message. He said to just use my hands and not to worry, as using one's hands to eat is acceptable in Japanese culture. This was the start of a conversation for the next couple of hours, passing our phones back and forth. We chatted about many things, including sharing info about where we came from and what work we do in our careers to politics in Japan and America. He's a nurse and moved to Tokyo after the disastrous earthquake of 2011, which he referred to as the Great Earthquake. He shared with me the heartbreaking story of how his grandparents were swept away out to sea by the tsunami never to be seen again. We also talked about lighthearted things such as anime and of course Star Wars, which he loves. All of this conversation was happening as he was ordering more and more sake and Japanese beer, which, for the record, I'm more of a lightweight when it comes to alcohol, and it doesn't take me very much to get drunk. At one point, he proudly proclaimed that Japanese people love to drink, and I promptly said that I thought my British friends were heavy drinkers, but I'm thinking the Japanese might hold the title. All kidding aside, I had a wonderful evening, which concluded with a shot of sake with my new friend and the sushi chefs. The last parting message from the sushi chefs was that they didn't know how fun Americans could be. I said my goodbyes to my friends, took a few moments to stand and balance, and then stumbled back to my hotel and promptly went to bed. I don't think I've been this drunk since visiting my friends in London. It was a great experience, and I'm pleased to share it with you, even though it's a little off the topic of Pan Am. So let's now talk about our interview guests of this episode. One of the things I do when I travel internationally is that I buy a box of chocolates for my flight crew and include in the bag a brochure about the Pan Am Museum, a QR code to listen to this program, and my business card. Many people in the aviation business do not know about our museum or podcast, and what better way to promote by giving them a sweet treat to show appreciation for their work and an opportunity for them to talk to me about Pan Am. Our flight to Japan was on United Airlines from Houston to Tokyo. On this trip, I brought some Columbus treats for the flight crew, which were chocolate and peanut butter buckeyes. Much to my surprise, the chief purser on our plane, Charlie, was an avid fan and listener of the Pan Am podcast. He came back to my seat a few times to chat, and it was very lovely. Charlie has been a flight attendant since 1979, and we'll hear his interview a bit later. On my return flight to New York, I flew on another United Airlines flight from Osaka to San Francisco and then on to Newark so I could attend the baby lift event later that evening. On this flight, I brought the crew Japanese suites. And yet again I was amazed because there were two flight attendants that were former Pan Am working on board. What a small world, indeed, right? Both Leslie and Lynn started with Pan Am in 1977. When the Pacific Division was sold in 1986, both of these ladies were transferred to United Airlines and they've been flying with them ever since. So what did I do when I learned of this aboard flight UA34, a Boeing 777200 flying over the Pacific Ocean at 35,000 feet? Well, naturally, I took out my phone and we did an interview. That's right, the Pan Am Podcast goes on location in the air to bring you their stories. How cool is that? Let's take a listen. So I am here at 35,000 feet with Leslie, one of our flight attendants on this flight. She joined Pan Am in 1977. Leslie, tell us a little bit about what it was like to join Pan Am in 1977.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

The day they said I was hired, it was the happiest day of my life.

SPEAKER_05 18:41

How so?

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Since I was nine years old, I wanted to fly. And when I was 15 years old, I wrote to Pan Am and Japan Airlines to see what is required to become a flight attendant. And Japan Airlines was saying that you have to be a Japanese citizen.

SPEAKER_05 19:05

Excellent. And where do where were you based? So you are you from Hawaii?

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Yes, I am.

SPEAKER_05 19:12

So you're one of the Nisei stewardesses?

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Like Sunsei. Sunsei.

SPEAKER_05 19:16

Okay, so that's third generation.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Right.

SPEAKER_05 19:19

And tell us a little bit about what it was like. Uh you know, Pan Am was 1977, right before um deregulation. Uh, what was it like working for the airline at that time?

SPEAKER_00 19:32

It was wonderful. Um the grammar or the heyday of the 1960s has kind of waned by the time we started was still wonderful. You know, we stayed at the nice hotels and great customers, my co-workers, they were all very helpful when we started. They're all very helpful to us, the few people. It was just a great experience. I mean, someone from Hawaii to travel around. It was just the best years of my life as a fight of the and so you had two uniforms at the time.

SPEAKER_05 20:07

You got the Edith Head uniform you started in, and then it went over to the other one in the 1980s. What was your favorite?

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Um, I think it was the one the one I started with.

SPEAKER_04 20:18

The Edith Head one.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Yeah, it was.

SPEAKER_05 20:21

It's um, I guess because it's the first Pan Am uniform, and I was so proud of the and how how has the airlines changed since Pan Am?

SPEAKER_00 20:33

One more people could afford to crack. Yes, it has changed. It's um I don't I feel like you have a fashion.

SPEAKER_05 20:48

And what was it like when Panam sold the Pacific Division and then you were transferred to United Airlines?

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Um expected and what I went. I still give you a sad.

SPEAKER_05 21:35

Yeah. I can imagine. Uh so nine years working for PantyM. Do you have any stories of uh something that uh happened on their flight changed people?

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Um we had the um the the Prince Prince Albert and Prince um Rainier. It was from LA to New York. Um I was just helping out the first class. So it's my first time meeting meeting royalty. It was just really exciting. They're both very nice, very gracious people.

SPEAKER_05 22:07

And uh Prince Albert was uh younger at the time.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Oh yeah. Oh yeah, this was still like in I think in the 70s. And um who else there was somebody else? Oh one of my first flights into Tokyo, we had uh a Prince of Kuwait on the flight. He invited the whole crew to uh party or or dinner that night, but I had other plans I couldn't go, so that was a disappointment. Yeah. But not too many celebrities. Originally.

SPEAKER_05 22:43

And um when you worked for Pan Am, you you worked the Pacific Division, so you did Tokyo.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Tokyo. I we went because of my language, Japanese language, we went as far as um Tehran back then. Yeah. So we went from from Tokyo to Hong Kong, um, transit Bangkok, Delhi, and on to Tehran. And then working all the way back.

SPEAKER_04 23:08

So you've been flying for over 45 years. What are some of your favorite destinations that you've traveled to?

SPEAKER_00 23:15

As uh working or just either. Doing photos safaries in Africa. Oh nice. That's my most favorite. I've been there five times. I love it. And that we're only able to do that because of Pan Am. You know, be to fight a tenant.

SPEAKER_04 23:30

Do you have any messages? We have a lot of young people that listen to our program. Uh do you have any messages for them uh as they're interested in aviation and they're they're also interested in Pan Am history?

SPEAKER_05 23:42

Why is Pan Am history important? So, what message do you have for young people that might be listening?

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Um to go back and look at the history of Pan Am, not just Pan Am, but other airlines, and if they really love to travel, this is a great job to have, um, not only as a flight attempt, but if you want to be a pilot, you know, just um hang in there, study, and pursue your career if it's the airline. It's a great, great job to have.

SPEAKER_05 24:10

And why should travel be important to people?

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Oh, it expands your horizon. You learn so much about the different cultures and customs of the different country. I think it just makes you a better person, more acceptable of other people, more tolerant of the different customs, you know, the different countries that you go to and the people we meet on the airplane. It's just been such an eye-opener for me over the years. Even now, you know, I still learn things from my customers, and that's pretty exciting. Still pretty exciting.

SPEAKER_05 24:48

Do you have a message for any of the your former Pan Am people that you worked with that might be listening?

SPEAKER_00 24:55

I said I'm I miss you guys. I miss everybody. Would love to see some of my friends that I haven't seen in ages, but I don't know. Maybe I'll should try to join um the Pan Am World Win. Yes, World Win.

SPEAKER_05 25:12

And you have to come to the museum in New York.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

There's a museum in New York, yeah. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_05 25:18

Yeah, definitely. And listen to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Oh yes. Oh, I don't know what happened to her. Maybe Lynn has that your podcast. Yeah, yeah. How long have you been doing this?

SPEAKER_05 25:29

Um four years.

unknown 25:31

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Is it okay if I ask you about that? Yeah, yeah, sure. What got you interested in this?

SPEAKER_05 25:35

Uh it's a long story, but when I was uh 12, I was on a Pan Am flight uh in 1991, and uh they put me up on the upper deck of a 747.

SPEAKER_04 25:48

And it was that's when I love my love of Pan Am began.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Oh, that's nice. That's that's really really cool. So that over the years you've like looked back at Pan Am's history and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:02

So I've always loved Pan Am stuff, I've always collected Pan Am stuff, and then uh during the pandemic, uh my friends like used to write this up and post it somewhere, and it went viral. And then all these Pan Am people started contacting me and then the museum, I'm a historian, so the museum said, Well, we need your help. Why don't you come, you know, do volunteer for us? Uh so that's kind of how this got started.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Oh wow. So it's kind of interesting. Yeah, oh my goodness. It's so nice to see somebody who you didn't really have any connection to kind of like family member or you know, parents of somebody that you work for you, too, too young. Yeah, I was too young, yes.

SPEAKER_05 26:45

I would have been a very, very junior uh employee.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

But I have to say, you know, as long as I've been with United, it's great, but my heart is still your your heart is always blue, right?

SPEAKER_05 27:00

That's great. Oh, thank you very much. Um so Leslie, thank you very much for for your time. We're on approach to San Francisco, um, but uh thank you very much for sharing your stories. And what do you do? And uh I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

My pleasure. Thank you. Yeah, that's it. Thank you so much for the watching.

SPEAKER_05 27:25

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Yeah, thank you for the desserts.

SPEAKER_05 27:27

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 27:29

Can I ask you a couple questions?

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 27:31

Alright, so I'm here with Lynn.

SPEAKER_05 27:33

She is the other PANAM flight attendant uh that is on this flight from Osaka to San Francisco. Lynn, when did you start with Pan Am?

SPEAKER_01 27:43

I fly, I started flying in uh April 18, 1977.

SPEAKER_05 27:48

Um oh, so your anniversary was just Yes, just recently. Just recently.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

And uh, I've been flying all my adult life.

SPEAKER_05 27:55

And why did you why did you want to fly?

SPEAKER_01 27:58

I just got asked to go for an interview. And uh I just I wasn't aware that it was such a big deal. I was so young at the time.

SPEAKER_05 28:09

And where where where were you based? Where did you live?

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Uh I lived in Honolulu, Hawaii, and I got based in Honolulu as well. We had a training center there, and it was a fun time.

SPEAKER_05 28:23

And what was it like when you applied for Pan Am and you got the job?

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Uh so we uh we flew on 707s at the time, uh single aisle plane, and we were used to handing out trays by hand, uh offering drinks individually, and then uh eventually the 747s came and uh with Hannah we had no bar carts, no meal carts, so we would hand out beverages and meals one by one to the passengers, and there was like 400 over maybe 430 people we were handing out trays and drinks to.

SPEAKER_05 29:04

What are some of your favorite memories? Uh any famous people on your on your plate for?

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Oh yes, yes. Um I had Dolly Parton and her mother. She sat in 1A and B, and she was such a gracious woman. She uh folded her blankets and put them above back into the overhead bin. She was really nice. There was uh Liz Taylor, Elizabeth Taylor, uh, and I was passing her face to face and noticed her violet blue eyes. She was so beautiful, she was a really, really nice lady as well. Yeah. I had um Carlos Santana, we had um my girlfriend had um uh what's his uh Rod Stewart. He was really nice to she got to take photos with him. I had Seiji Ozawa, and we had a dining service in the upper deck of the 747, which we would set out like a restaurant, tables. We'd we would set out the dining uh silverware and flowers and glassware, crystalware, everything we'd set it out individually, and then we would invite our customers to come upstairs and sit down and have dinner as if they were in a real restaurant. That was really nice. Um, I also had um uh what is his name? Um Jerry Lewis. He was really nice, he was fun.

SPEAKER_05 30:32

Yes. Uh did you ever take your family on any trips? Any members? Oh yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

So we um we had the true first class at the time. So I took my family, we went around the world, went to uh uh Rome, Frankfurt, Venice, uh Paris, uh London, and uh we did a lot of Asia trips, went to uh Singapore and Osokwam, Manila, Japan, several cities in Japan, Hong Kong, um and it was nice then we could sit in first class, and we actually had uh uh we didn't have to worry about competing with other standby passengers, so it was a treat.

SPEAKER_05 31:23

What was it like when uh Panam sold the Pacific Division and you were transferred to United Airlines?

SPEAKER_01 31:30

Yes, so at the time the pilots and I believe maybe the mechanics were on a strike, so we were all um out of we were not flying, so we decided to go to Europe. So we were in Europe. One day we were reading the newspapers uh United by 10M Pacific Roots, and we decided, oh, I think we better go back home, find out what's going on, and then it was very sad, it was a very sad time.

SPEAKER_05 32:02

Do you have any uh message uh we we need to get going because of our uh descent into San Francisco? Do you have any message for your former colleagues at Pan Am that might be listening?

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Yes, oh I miss you all very much. We had such a wonderful, memorable time. It's uh can never be uh reproduced again at the time that we had, and uh just hope everyone is doing well and health-wise doing well, health-wise. Miss you all, and we have a lot of fond memories. Mahalo and aloha domain mashta for all the memories.

SPEAKER_05 32:38

Well, thank you very much, Lynn.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Thank you. It's nice talking about it.

SPEAKER_05 32:42

I've been very happy on your flight, and uh it's great meeting you.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Thank you, it's nice to meet you too. Thank you for all your gifts.

SPEAKER_05 32:49

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 32:52

Again, thank you to flight attendants Leslie and Lynn for taking the time to chat with me and their excellent onboard service. I'm so disappointed that I didn't think to interview United Purser Charlie in the air on my inbound flight to Japan, but he was kind enough to chat with me later when we were both stateside. Let's take a listen to his story. Well, it's a pleasure to welcome you to the Pantium Podcast, Charlie. Uh, you and I met on a flight from Houston to Tokyo. Why don't we start there and tell us about that flight and how we met?

SPEAKER_03 33:30

Hi, Tom. Good to talk to you again. Um, it's an easy one to remember because you brought us something beautiful uh and unusual to the crew, and that's why I'm delighted to be on this uh chat with you today is number one to be able to thank you for that. But um, you know, customers often bring us chocolates or little things, uh, little little you know, mementos for the crew. It's awfully nice of people. But this one day I was up in business class at door one, and the crew came up and said, Oh, this really nice guy, a couple of cabins in the uh back. I said, uh, please enjoy these items. And it was a Pan Am ticket folder. And when I looked, I thought, oh my god, it's the 1965 logo. It has a fake ticket, it has an invitation to the museum, it has an invitation to contribute and donate, which I think is great. And I thought, I've died and gone to heaven. This is amazing. And we were so busy up there, I didn't get to see you until after the service. And when I did, I was entranced and thinking, I gotta meet the person who brought us a Pan Am ticket folder full of beautiful things. And they're in front of me right now as I look, and they're really vintage and really nice. So let me say thank you and tell you how creative it was. And um you found the right person because I flew Pan Am in 1965 for the first time on a 707 on flight 219 from New York to JFK to Antigua, Coolidge Field in the Caribbean, on my way to Montserrat. That began my love of aviation.

SPEAKER_04 35:19

Oh, cool. I like to take those on my trips because it's a great promotional piece for uh all the work that we're doing in our YouTube channel. You know, it's just a great thing to hand out to uh people in aviation. So I it brings me great joy to hear that you loved those items.

SPEAKER_03 35:38

Absolutely. I recommend it because they'll among senior crews, there's always someone that's going to find that the best thing they've ever gotten on a plane, and I would rank it right up there. Pan Am, two Pan Am stewardesses once brought us uh pate and cheese on a Paris to Houston flight, and while everyone else was bringing chocolates, I said, boy, they always outdo everybody. And even in retirement, pate and cheese from Paris was the perfect gift, too. But I'll put yours right next to it because I can't eat it.

SPEAKER_04 36:14

There you go. Um so let's talk a little bit about your career. You've been in aviation for the last 45 years. You started when you were five years old, right?

SPEAKER_03 36:24

Yes, four. I they were hiring at four back in the day.

SPEAKER_04 36:29

Let's start in the beginning. You started uh, I believe in 1979, right after deregulation. Take us back.

SPEAKER_03 36:37

Yeah, well, I was in college for travel transportation and tourism at Niagara University, and the way it was done then is you took applications, paper ones, and you typed them nicely, very carefully in the typewriter, and you tended to put them all in the mail on one day and hope for the best. And that's what I did in January of 79, because then the airlines would hire you if you were in college as long as you were gonna graduate at the end of that semester. So they would actually make the commitment to you within that six-month time frame. So I applied to uh United American Delta, TWA, Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, uh, somebody else. And uh I was hired by United American Northwest and rejected by Pan Am. My biggest disappointment in my early adult life with languages, even, and uh didn't make it with Eastern or Branif.

SPEAKER_04 37:36

We talked about that on the flight, that that was just a really bad time for Pan Am in 1979 because they were in the process of buying national airlines and they were furloughing current employees um in preparation for that purchase. So it was just bad timing for you, unfortunately. But that was kind of cool that you and I kind of talked about it and and I knew exactly you know what the problem was.

SPEAKER_03 38:00

Yes, and I can say this is why you the work you do affects people because for my entire career I thought, was I two pounds overweight? Did they see me at 5'9 instead of 5'10? You know, what was it? Because I made it all the way to the final, you know, and in the third, you usually got rubber stamped in. And uh you were able to explain to me what I think it was Ed Acker was no, Seawall. It was uh Seawall. William Sewell. Sewell. Yes. You were explaining to me how he had changed the focus to national. And here's why understanding history, here's why foundations like yours and the Pan Am Foundation in general are meaningful because you were able to rewrite my script in my mind of what happened. Because in understanding the history, I understood what was going on when I walked into 240 Park Avenue for that third interview that day. And uh please keep up the good work because this is why the work you do and the foundations, it actually really helps people that live through different times. And uh, I hope you continue that work. I appreciate that very much. Let's go back to uh your first airlines. Well, of those airlines, I wound up going with United. I love their interview process, it was the most rigorous. I was hired at JFK. Um, and uh deregulation of the American airline industry was October of 78. And the effects of that had not really taken place, other than that there was massive expansion of routes. But the contracts people worked under, the meals that were served, the products, the advertising was all still very much the way it had always been. And 79 was a year when they had mass hiring because of all of the additional routes that airlines could just simply assign themselves to. And United, I think, hired about 1,200 people that year, approximate. That's a very approximate number. And I was all set to go with a July 2nd hiring date, but on my college graduation weekend, which was May 25th, 1979, there was a terrible uh DC-10 crash in Chicago, American 191. And remember, I got hired by United American and Northwest, and guess what? Those were the three airlines in America that flew DC-10s. So, in other words, the three DC-10 carriers I was successful with, and therefore not going anywhere soon because it was a six-week rounding. So my recruiter called me and said, hang in there, just get any kind of job. If you have to wash windows, what we really want to see is some kind of employment, and your class date is there, we just don't know when it'll begin. So very quickly, it was a six-month delay, and I finally walked into the United Training Center August 20th of 1979 at 157 pounds. I won't tell you what I am today, but it was a time of weight checks and skinniness and fitted uniforms, and it was a very different time. Um still the old way before the effects of deregulation.

SPEAKER_04 41:29

And tell us a little bit about your flying career. So how has aviation changed since you started in 1979 where we are today?

SPEAKER_03 41:38

Uh it's changed a lot. Um United, I flew 13 months. We were 820-79. We were laid off, I think I want to say September 13th of 80. So it was a 13-month run. We got our one-year PIN in the same meeting that we were presented our furlough papers. Um the supervisor ratio for probationaries then was one to 20. Today it might be one to 200, maybe depending on the airline. So it was very personalized and it was very sad because we just loved our new jobs. We were, you know, really enjoying things. Remember, this is the old days when on reserve they sent a taxi for you at the hotel and you had a bunch of vouchers to hand them, and you could walk into the credit union at the airline and buy a car instantly, no questions asked. It was a very, very different time. The effects hadn't happened yet. So, year one was what I would call my professional standards training because United had extremely high standards. There was ocean-to-ocean service, and the mid-continent service was uh chefs gourmet. We had West Coasters uh on the west coast of the USA with colors and themes like Dutch pretzels with cheddar cheese and apple cider, and then we would have Chapino coming out of San Francisco and seafood Newburgh and you know, regional kitchens. United had kitchens. Interesting. All of the hubs. They United was known for the best food because they went a route back in their formation of having their own kitchens and their own executive chefs. Very interesting. And at the time, United's kitchens were in all the major hubs, and the food was really exceptional. The three-hour mark was where it became great. And it was a very cut and dry. Like under three hours, if you serve roast beef and string beans and mashed potatoes, they might look a little green from whatever was keeping it preserved. But once you pass that three hour mark, like Chicago, LA, uh all the transcontinentals, and especially United's corner of the world, which was Hawaii, you really had. Amazing food. Um, it was incredible. So that was year one professional standards, learning how to carve roast, uh, you know, proper pouring techniques, on and on and on, you know, the way it was done. And people were dressed. My first movie stars in the first month were Tony Randall and his wife, his first wife. And, you know, Marlo Thomas, Chicago to LA. I think she was going to see Phil Donahue or coming from that. You know, just we had that's when the stars flew uh commercial. And um, it was always very exciting. Um, the LA Washington, D.C. flight was always very interesting. I was based in Los Angeles, and the Washington, D.C. flights, those flight attendants that were based there knew all the politicians. They knew their congressmen and their senators. And we had 44 seats on the DC 10 that flew ocean to ocean service between LA and Washington. And uh, I often was in the front as purser or first class. It was 50-50 because I was the most junior, and it depended on what that crew wanted. I was either always in the front or always in the back, almost a 50-50 split, and often having to do the lead purser position because nobody wanted to do it. And uh I remember we had Bob Woodward and um the guy uh Charles uh Charles the guy who from Nixon's team, I'm forgetting his name. Call uh Charles Colson. Yeah, Colson, Chuck Colson. Yes, that's it. We had Chuck Colson and uh Bob Woodward on each side of the DC 10. And well, that was awkward. Oh, yes, and we couldn't wait to see if they would speak to each other. We waited and waited, and at the end of the flight, they did uh have a conversation, but more interestingly, Chuck Colson had become a born-again Christian, and the flight attendant in the service center in first class was a born-again Christian, and they must have spoken for about an hour.

SPEAKER_04 46:02

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 46:02

Uh it's kind of like when I had um uh the guy Denton Cooley, not Denton Cooley, but um the one who did open heart surgery down here in Houston, he was on my flight, the guy who who invented the open heart surgery, and we couldn't wait to see what he ordered for breakfast the eggs or the cereal. And uh he had the eggs, and so we all felt much better about the guy who created open heart surgery having eggs for breakfast. But uh, that was what that was, and it ended abruptly, and it was devastating, and we didn't know what to do. I was hired by Alia Royal Jordanian Airlines because I was able to converse in French, Spanish, and German. And right as I was about to go to Oman for uh, you know, a contract with them, um, the Iraq and Iran War of 1980 broke out and the port of Aqaba was blocked, and then the word came that only men could go if they spoke Arabic, but they took all the women that had been laid off by the U.S. majors. So, second loss of a job. So I'm teaching at Empire Technical School in Orange, East Orange, New Jersey, uh, travel and tourism, thing waiting for United to call us back. And we thought we'd be called back in the spring of 80. We thought it would be a nine-month furlough, but that furlough went on for three years because there was a tremendous uh recession in 1980. But one day my students and I were looking, and this airline, People Express, had an ad that they were starting up as the first airline after deregulation. And I thought, oh, that's interesting. It's right there in New Jersey. I was living with my brother because I wasn't making much money. And uh we thought, well, I can do that, you know, until United calls me back. Well, went to the interview. I had gained weight, my hair was long, my suit was loud, and I stood up, said my name, and didn't get called for anything more. But two weeks later, my students opened the same ad and say, Mr. G, please take us to the interview. So I'm like, oh my God, I can't go back. They say not for six months, but I thought, well, what's the worst that can happen? They can just say, you know, leave. So short story, we all piled in somebody's limousine. Somebody's family ran a limousine company, and one of those stretches we played at the interview. That's great. Yeah, it was great. We piled out of there. It was like something out of a sitcom. And uh the first person I saw when I walked in was a guy I had asked a question of two weeks earlier. So I thought, uh, I already know I'm not getting this. They already know I was just here. So I relaxed and I laughed. And when we did our group, they put my students and I together, six of them and me. They must have been up to something, wondering what this all was. And uh I was, you know, featuring my students and directing attention to them and cutting jokes and laughing. Well, I got a call that night that said, Can you start Monday morning, May 18th of 1981? Oh, wow. And I said, sure. I went through like three processes very, very quickly. I built an airline from scratch for seven years until it had been purchased by Texas Air in 1986-87. And uh what was great about that is you could do anything you wanted because there was simply no one in front of you. My training career started with a life jacket. We leased uh two 737-200s from CPR at the time, Canadian Pacific, and uh they had life jackets, whereas our Lufthansa 737100s did not. And somebody said, You like training, right? And I said, Yeah. And they said, Okay, you get in there, show them this video, get everybody to sign the docket and make sure they put it on and make sure you get everybody done in two weeks. And I said, Alrighty then. And that was the beginning of a very, very long and exciting career of both flying and training. And that airline was bought by Texas Air in '86, which brought us to Continental, which at the time was not doing well. They had had a bankruptcy in 83, so we were not happy about that. But it was, I was 30 years old, and because they had had a bankruptcy, they had very, very young crews. And I wound up being temporary duty in Honolulu as a director of passenger service, which is kind of like a Julie on the Loveboat role, kind of like what your purser is today, except it was a management supervisor position then. And I was going back and forth between Newark and Honolulu, either teaching or flying. And, you know, we were people in our 20s and early 30s flying South Pacific routes that were extremely glamorous. And it was really one of the great times. We made no money and had so much fun. So that was a very good time. And uh then in 96, Gordon Bethune came and he turned Continental around, and then we had 17 years of great success, great progress, lots of awards, lots of pay raises. And then in around 28, Delta and Northwest merged, which triggered the other majors to merge, and there was uh United and Continental and American and US Airways, and that was the consolidation that took 35 years to happen. Uh, when I remember that deregulation I was telling you about, the prediction was in five years there would be a consolidation, but it actually took 35 years.

SPEAKER_04 52:03

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 52:03

Interesting. Yeah, the first 25 years of my career were nothing but storm and stress. We always wondered if we would have a job two months from now because there was so much going on and so much cash going out the door, and so many extra seats with so many airlines in the country. Um, the first time I really felt like I could relax was about 2010, and I started in 1979. It took long to feel secure in the industry where they became too big to fail. And then here we are today.

SPEAKER_04 52:36

So that's yeah, like you you have, you know, you have bookends with United, and now you're back with United because Continental merged with United, and now you're you're back. So they called you back after all.

SPEAKER_03 52:48

Yes, they did in a very strange way. And it's funny, I was on a flight with a girl and I thought, where do I know you from? Were you ever based in Houston? Or, you know, did we go to recurrent training together? Something we couldn't place it. And when she heard me make an announcement, she said, Charles, I'm Melanie. I said, Melanie from my initial training at United? She goes, Yes. And what I can tell you is when you look in a person's eyes, that's how you know nothing has changed. It's the eyes that give it away, they don't age, and you might look totally different. Uh, another time when United and Continental merged, we were in Paris at the Hilton, the Paris Hilton, and the crew room had an entrance with a salon on one side and the another salon on the other. So, of course, both crews would walk in and divide, and everybody would look at each other because we hadn't integrated yet. It was the very beginning of the merger. And I was always reaching out because I wanted to see if the United People knew people I knew. And this woman was at the espresso machine behind me, and I could tell she was really watching me. She came around and said, Do you remember who your trainers were? And I said, Oh, yes. You know, it was Alan Levine and Connie Dolan, and it was uh Bobby, something or other, and uh Judy Muncaster, who started in 57, and you know, more names that I had remembered at the time. She goes, I'm Connie. Oh, that's wild. I looked at her, and I looked, she we looked totally different. 35 years had gone by, and I looked in her eyes and I immediately knew who it was. So that's how airline people can recognize each other. The eyes, the eyes keep it all the time.

SPEAKER_04 54:44

Well, I think I told you so. You and I, we were on the flight from Houston to Tokyo, and then my friends and I, um, after a week in Tokyo and going to Star Wars celebration, which is one of the reasons why we went to Japan, we took the bullet train over to Osaka. Uh, so I traveled back from Osaka to San Francisco and then on to Newark for the Operation Baby Lift event uh that was held on April 24th. And I did the same thing. I had my brochures. Um, this time instead of bringing you Columbus treats from uh the Columbus peanut shop, I had to get Japanese treats in the airport for the crew. This guy comes back and he's like, uh, there are two Pan Am flight attendants working this flight and they want to meet you in a little bit. So there were two former Pan Am uh flight attendants, uh Lynn and Leslie, that um uh work for United. They started with Pan Am in 77 and then they left the airline in 86 when United bought the Pacific Division and they were transferred to United. You know, I got to meet you. You already knew about the podcast and the museum, and then I got to talk to these uh two wonderful ladies. Um uh and I didn't think to do it for you, uh, but I actually interviewed them uh while we were on the plane, which was kind of cool.

SPEAKER_03 56:07

Oh, that's great. You you attracted in. I'm so glad you did. You know, it's very rare to find the true Pan Am because they're in their 70s now, but we still have a I wouldn't say a large number, but we still have quite a number. And uh you can tell right away when you walk up to them in a briefing, you can feel it. There's an elegance, um, there's just something about it. I flew with one of the Scandinavian ladies that was hired in 65 or 66 on a London flight just a few months ago. And I just was in awe because there is a something about there's a cachet around the way they present themselves. That is from a time of it's it it's it shows that they experience things that people just will not experience today. You can see it in the comportment, and they're elegant and they know what to do, and they're fun, and they know how to be casual when it's okay to be casual, but they know how to be formal when formality is needed. They're just amazing people. And I'm so grateful for this opportunity to connect with you and what you know. And what you know, Tom, one of the things that I was so excited about is I had asked about Dorothy Kelly when I met you because I said I've admired her for years. Uh, her heroism in the Tenerife crash. She was the surviving purser who, um, in a totally horrendous situation, did as much as she could, not just at the scene, but in the hospital afterwards. Um, the her story is amazing. And the fact that you knew her and could connect me with her to so I could write her a letter was very meaningful. And uh, you also have met Al Topping. Yes, yes. Last flight out of Saigon, Al Topping. And um, he's another man that I've I've read his book. Um oh, I'll I'll connect you with him. Yeah, I'm happy to speak. Um, I was going through some things the other day, and I like, ah, there's Al's book. It's it's a you know a great story. But the Pan American was the creator of most of what we love about aviation. Um, and it was through many trials and errors that they created safety factors, they built runways, they learned how to put radio beacons in places that allowed an airplane to navigate. I I mean, uh, my biggest sadness is that it the government allowed it to fail in 1991 because it cost them a lot of money to be the instrument of the United States, to be the unofficial flag carrier. They did things, they went in and did many missions and operations that were quite dangerous, like the evacuation of Tehran, for example, um, in 79, 78 type of thing. Um, they did things that were kind of like right out of a Jack Reacher book. And a lot of that cost them money. Uh, some of it they were paid for, but it cost them a lot in what they could have been making if that airplane was doing something else. So they were kind of our instrument and our chosen flag carrier unofficially, but then when they needed it, it it didn't go. And I know that's that always goes two ways. That's not just the government. You know, it's the management, they were top heavy, we know that. Um, they didn't recognize necessarily the right way out of that massive change was needed. And uh, I think it was just too too iconic for people to see outside the box. But I do feel very sad that it didn't continue.

SPEAKER_04 59:57

So, do you have a message for we have a whole bunch of young people that listen to this program? And I share earlier in this program, I shared some some of my travel stories um connecting with people. Uh, you know, you and I are new friends now, um, and Lynn and Leslie and I are new friends now. And it seems like when you travel, there are opportunities to meet people and connect with people. Do you have any message for young people about uh traveling in your experience?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:25

Oh, yes. Uh I have two very specific things uh because I'm very aware um when you're old like I am, you really want to share. It's like you want to give a software download to the young people. There's a need in psychology for people my age to give it back. It's like when you're you're gonna retire, you want to start decluttering your house. You spent many years accumulating things, then you want to give it away. I think it's the same with our learning and our experiences. And I have two answers for that. Um, the first is what I tell new hires that are actually flying is to create a journal of the funny things that happen. Because the airline industry will outdo any Hollywood writer for absurd hilarity. Isn't that the truth? Like, like I remember the problem is I can't remember 95% of them now. And so I tell them when they see something really hilarious, really funny, or really joyful, write it down. And now that we have digital age, attach a picture. And my favorite way to make the new hires laugh when we we just had one, seven months to Rio de Janeiro on this trip. And you know, there's two of us that have been flying well over 40 years working with her. And we said, listen, take a picture because when you're our seniority, we're gonna be dead. And uh, she goes, Oh no, no, I said, No, do the math. It's not a sad thing. There's just no way you could be our seniority and have us alive. And uh she did, and I said, and and you know, the funny things that happen, write write a little something and then just let that evolve and evolve and evolve, and you will have memories uh on camera. The other thing about meeting people around the world, about 2005, I had met this lovely lady uh on a Paris flight. I flew Houston, Paris for 22 years as a French speaker. And um, you know, I we got to know our customers very well because we had a regular group of passengers that went back and forth and you became friends, but you know, we really never would socialize or um give out our cards or accept invitations. We just, you know, kept that wall up. And this lady was so nice, and you could tell she was someone you'd want to sit down to dinner with and be a friend of. And something flashed through my mind about Pan Am flight attendants and Pan Am stewardesses and flight attendants knew people all over the world. Um, if you were a Pan Am stewardess in the 60s and then becoming a flight attendant in the 70s and 80s, you had friends in every capital of the world. And I'm thinking they were open to it, they were open to the relationships. And I thought, I'm gonna make friends with this lady because she really wanted to visit once we got back to Houston. And I decided I would give her my number. And then her husband was on my flight the next week, and we talked about how I met his wife, and then we became great friends. And since then, I have for the last 20 years, uh, made many friends like you uh off the aircraft because I'm open to it. Pan Am had something that nobody else had, which was common sense. Airlines have rules and regulations, and boy, can they get into it. An airline can spin a rule any way it wants.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:07

Try working in state government.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:08

Oh my god, I oh yes, yes, I believe it. But you know, Pan Am had a way. I remember um Pan Am had an early out in '85, and there were two uh Pan Am girls working at Continental when I got there. And I was in training and management at the time doing projects. It was uh Beth Salling and Gene Ritchie. Um and they had just left Pan Am and Continental scooped them up because they needed their knowledge and experience. And I remember Gene, we were one day, one of the not very smart guys at the Continental Procedures Group, which was he didn't stay very long. Um, there was a flight from London to Houston that let's say it had 26 first class seats when we still had first business and coach. Um and let's say, just to pick numbers, it was booked to it was catered to like 15, but there were non-reps, company employees waiting to go. And and he had a policy that um you, if the catering wasn't there, you couldn't seat them in first class. Now, any company employee just wants to sit down. We'll eat from any cabin. You know, we're not gonna, nobody ever died on a flight because they didn't have caviar or Volo Vant as an appetizer. And uh so I remember being horrified that he left people at the gate and not let them get home. Well, we were at a meeting afterwards, and I remember Jean just looked at him and said, uh I won't say his name, he's deceased now, but um so and so she said, uh we don't leave people in foreign countries. And you could have heard a pin drop. And that was an example of Pan Americans' common sense. Um, the way they understood there was something much bigger here than the rule book. It's they get people home. And, you know, in their world, they might have been coming out of Dakar to Khartoum or Istanbul or or Baghdad. And, you know, you don't leave people in Baghdad because you don't have enough caviar for the first class seats. And beneath the elegance of the Pan Am service was a common sense. You know, the appearance regulations, I would see them in the Caribbean all the time in Antigua or Barbados. And, you know, uh, they would run off to buy duty free because the rum was so cheap. And, you know, the hat was on, but the jacket and gloves were off, and they looked fantastic because that's where they were. But if you saw them crossing the International Arrivals building at JFK in the 60s or 70s in the winter, you know, full boots, full hat, full coat, full gloves, you know, they they understood they didn't have to be a certain way all the time. They adapted to where they were. Great shots of them flying the military, the military air command flights where they're only wearing the skirt and blouse and their feet are in the sand on some beach in Denang.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:21

Uh the Pan Am ladies that I've been fortunate enough to become really good friends with. I'm kind of the adopted son in the Pan Am world. They're just so they're still elegant to this day. Uh sometimes I meet some ladies in their 90s and they're they still look great.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:37

Yes, yes, it's true. It's like the two that brought us pate and cheese. They they knew coming out of Paris, that's what we really would want. Uh and uh they have an intuition. Um, and some very funny stories. One of my friends, she's not doing well now, but she flew from 66 to 72 with Pan Am and uh then worked in the insurance department after she uh stopped flying to get married and stayed with them until 91 when they shut the doors. Um, but you know, she of course flew the Africa routes out of JFK and things on the 707. And you know, one day they were in some remote spot in Africa, and uh she comes down for the return flight in her uniform, perfectly pressed and ready, but with tangerine sandals on. The hotel would shine the shoes, but they lost her shoes. Oh no, you know, and and she said, Well, just gonna have to wear tangerine sandals, and uh, I guess the captain put up such a fit that the shoes were produced before they left the airport. But uh, you know, they had very, very common sense, very they handled anything with uh poise and a plomb. Uh nothing was was a Pan Am flight attendant could handle anything. Uh there's nothing that would thwart them. They simply knew they trusted themselves. And I think to new people and young people, the secret uh the secret sauce between a senior flight attendant and a very new flight attendant is that the senior flight attendants trust themselves. And it's kind of a pre-confirmed trust. You you trust yourself that anything that comes your way, you're simply gonna respond well because you know what to do. Uh perfect example, I was on a very, very senior flight uh to London recently, like everybody was over 40 years and higher, like in the 50s. And um, we were already in our seats for landing, and the captain called me as the purser and said, just a heads up, um, the um nose wheel tire is showing a failure of tire pressure. So um we think it's gonna be okay, but we can't say for sure. So just be prepared for a nose gear collapse landing in case, and and you know, we're already seated, like this is like you know, 2,000 feet or something like that. So I made a quick call to everybody on the interphone and I said, Hey guys, uh nose wheel pressure is not showing um proper reading, uh, possibility of a nose gear collapse or something, you know, with the nose gear. So just have that procedure on how we handle that in your mind. And everybody was like, Yeah, okay, good, good. And everyone went back to chatting with the person across like we already know what to do for that. Whereas I think if that had been someone very junior, they might have, you know, jumped up, ripped out the manuals, you know, hung on for dear life as it swooped over the trees or something, you know. Sure. And I think that's what experience does because Pan Am was the world's most experienced airline, and they certainly showed everybody else in the industry what that was.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:11

Yeah, very good point. Anything else you'd like to add to our conversation?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:16

Just uh a thanks for your work with the foundation. A thanks for having so many chapters. I mean, I think the podcasts are over 50. Don't you have podcasts numbering in the 60s now? Uh not quite yet.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:32

Yours is number 54. So we're nearing it, but uh it it takes me a while to put these together. Um, sometimes uh it is depending on the episode and and the historical content, it takes me longer for some than others. But uh yeah, we're at number 54. This episode marks 54.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:53

Ah, that's that's amazing. Well, I just want you to know your work makes a difference. Like you made me understand me not getting hired by Pan Am in a different light because of what they had decided to do. Um, the work you do is not for nothing, it affects people. It either gives them a vision and a dream, it it either teaches them a way to fly from another time in life, or it allows them to remember and connect with something they had been there. So the work you're doing is phenomenal work. I hope to attend some of your events. I hope to donate um somehow. I hope this is the beginning of a long association where we can. Absolutely. And um, the final thing I would say is if you see Dorothy Kelly, would you please buy her a bottle of Don Perignon for me? And would you just let me know what the price was? And I'll send you uh something on Zell or Venmo because I've wanted to buy uh Dorothy or Al Topping a bottle of champagne for many years out of just sheer admiration for what they accomplished because they sure deserve it. I would I would love to celebrate both of them with a glass, no, not a glass, a bottle of Don Perignon, which was signature champagne.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:14

Yeah, I think that can be arranged as long as they share with us, right? Right, right. I think more than two glasses. Yes. Uh, I think I think I can arrange that and I will uh connect you with both of them. Yeah, I can't thank you enough for your time, and it was a pleasure being your passenger. Your crew treated me very well.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:36

I get it. And by the way, you were very first class. Uh it doesn't matter where you sit. A first class passenger is is uh something they bring on board with them, it's not what seat number they have, and you were very first class.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:49

Thank you. And and it and I was very, very fortunate to meet your crew, and uh, some of your crew didn't know about the podcast, and uh, I'm sure you told them um after I left, and it was just great. And we had a female captain, which was really cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:05

Yes, yes, absolutely. They're amazing. The female captains were very rare when I started. There might have been a handful. And now United has the most uh females in the flight deck. Um, I believe we're the number one of airlines worldwide uh for accomplished females that have made it to captain. Awesome.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:28

Well, again, Charlie, thank you very much for your time. And uh it's been a pleasure, and I hope to talk to you again soon.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:35

Okay, Tom, thank you for this opportunity. It was great to be able to reminisce with you.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:45

Pan Am was a pioneer in air travel and still stands as one of the most iconic and innovative airlines in aviation history. That legacy lives on at the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York, where you can explore the rich history of the aircrafts and individuals at the heart of the company known as the world's most experienced airline. For more information about the Pan Am Museum, check out our website at www.thepanmuseum.org. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. As was once a tagline in one of our commercials, we would greatly appreciate your support to help the Pan Am Museum continue making the going great. You can also support the museum by shopping on our online store for all things Pan Am accessories, apparel, jewelry, books, models, and posters. We want to hear from you. If you have a question for us or want to share your story, our email address is podcast at the Pan Ammuseum.org. As flight crews once said to passengers departing for their destinations around the world, thank you for flying, Pan Am