SPEAKER_01 0:14

Welcome to the Pan Am Podcast, brought to you by the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York. This podcast and our museum are dedicated to celebrating the legacy of the world's most iconic airlock, Pan American World Airways. My name is Tom Betty, and I'm the host of this program. Thank you for joining us. The Pan Am Museum Foundation is a nonprofit organization. Please visit our website for more information at the Pan Ammuseum.org. Again, our website is the Panamuseum.org. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. If you are using Apple Podcasts, please consider leaving a review. It will help others discover this program. This podcast is sponsored by the generous personal support of Mr. Adam Aaron, the CEO and chairman of AMC Theaters. He is also president of our sister organization, the Pan Am Historical Foundation. If you're not familiar with Pan Am, welcome. We are honored to have you here, and for you to learn about what we're all about. If you already know of Pan Am, worked for or flown on the airline, or just love our history, it's good to be with you again. So with that, let's get this episode in the air, so to speak. Welcome aboard your Pan American jet clipper. Kate is an avid fan of this podcast and reached out to me to praise our program, and I'm so happy we connected. Definitely keep an eye out for her work on the big screen in the future, and remember you met her here first. Jack is now a professor and chair of the writing for Screen and Television Division at the University of Southern California School of Cinematic Arts, also known as USC. But you probably already know of Jack from a little movie that he co-wrote that came out in the mid-1980s. This movie is one of the most iconic aviation films ever made, the 1986 blockbuster Top Gun, which he co-wrote with his longtime screenwriting partner, Jim Cash. Starring Tom Cruise and Val Kilmer, Top Gun didn't just redefine aviation movies, it became a cultural phenomenon. It inspired generations of aviators, reignited pride in flight, and set the gold standard for how aviation could be portrayed on screen. The film was also a popular hit during its run as a featured movie of Pan Am's Theater in the Air. Beyond the breathtaking aerial footage, Top Gun is a brilliant study in the craft of screenwriting, how character, emotion, and story structure come together to create cinematic magic. Let's take a listen to a trailer from YouTuber Movie Jeff promoting the film Top Gun, directed by Tony Scott from Paramount Pictures.

SPEAKER_04 4:02

Gentlemen, you're on the top 1% of Naval David. Elite best will make you better. We're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Today, Jack brings the same storytelling mastery to his students at USC, shaping the next generation of screenwriters and filmmakers. In our conversation, we'll talk about Jack's remarkable career, his insights into the art and discipline of screenwriting, the enduring legacy of Top Gun, and how Kate is carrying that storytelling spirit forward in her new screenplay about Pan Am and the tragedy at Tenerife. So without further flight delays, and knowing that many of our listeners are Av Geeks and have the need for speed, now on to our interview. Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

It's nice to be here.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Thank you. It's so nice to be on my favorite podcast.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Oh, you're so kind. You know, Pan Am kind of brought us together and the podcast brought us together. I'd like to throw it to you, Kate, the first question. I'd like to talk about Professor Epps and how he inspired you.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

In so many ways, uh, has Mr. Epps inspired me. I would say the easiest way to explain it is if school is the brain, Professor Epps is the heart. Uh, he really encourages he's gonna look like what? But he really encouraged us to be the truest you you can be, if that even makes sense. I think it is a struggle as a writer to be vulnerable and write stories, and not everybody likes those stories. And sometimes we showed up with story ideas that are completely bonkers, and Mr. Repps just is so his gift is really his authenticity in allowing you to be authentic. And there were stories that I would never have written had I not had him as a teacher. Even this Pan Am script is because of Mr. Repps. Uh, and so I think he really is a a blessing to have as a teacher. So suffice to say, he's okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

And and Jack, what do you what do you think when you hear this from one of your former students?

SPEAKER_02 8:35

Well, I'm very touched because the one the reason I like to teach is because I really want to share my experience. Um I want to I want to come at writing from a a good place, a place of of letting go, being themselves, just willing to willing to make mistakes, willing to realize you can't be perfect, just get get it down, get it down, and realize it's a process of revision, a process of growth, and to not be judgmental. So I I I I'm I'm pleased that things I hold very important when I'm teaching are coming through. That's what I that's what I really want. So make sure I'm communicating with the students and helping them grow as a writer. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

He's the Mary Poppins of USC, by the way. He wouldn't tell you that, but he's got a bag that he has anything and everything, even a cooler at one point. Some kid just brought like a frozen meal by accident, and he was like, it's okay, I've got it. And he had a cooler. Um, so you knew you could also depend on Mr. Epps for anything.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

The MacGyver of USC, correct? So, Kate, the the way that we got started is you contacted me about Pan Am and you you're a listener of the podcast, and you shared with me a story that you were a student in his class, and you guys developed this conversation all around Pan Am. And obviously, Jack will get into Top Gun and Aviation. But tell us a little bit about that conversation that the two of you had about uh the iconic airline Pan Am.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Well, what's funny is it all started with, again, to go with how he's such an amazing teacher, is it all started with a prompt that he gave us about what is a what was the I don't actually exactly know what the exact prompt is, but it was about a real story and how we could turn that into a feature screenplay, which Top Gun also was a real story, as Jack will get into, um, and how that developed into his feature screenplay. And I remember I was just trying to find something that interested me and what I thought was important, and I really wanted a story that was larger than life, something that was bigger than us. And then I stumbled upon this story about Tenerife, flight 1736, and that that was a story. Pan Am in of itself is larger than life. I think that exact event is, I know it sounds kind of crazy to think of this as being something to tie people in, but I think for audiences that don't know much about Pan Am, it will engage them, but also will then educate them as they're be learning about the story because it really I think showcases the heroism and how Pan Am has revolutionized the aviation industry in so many ways. And that's even larger than an airline. It really has a heart and soul to it, and that's lived on to this day. I mean, there's a podcast that we're on right now still talking about it. So uh, and that was just all because of this prompt that Mr. Epps gave to me.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Jack, do you want to comment on that?

SPEAKER_02 11:32

Yes. I mean, the prompt was it was it was a class that was uh called Breaking the Story, which is to help students work with the hardest thing to do, which is to create a story out of something. So the assignment was to take a real life event uh and or a person uh out of a biographical story and turn it into a movie, which is very difficult because now you've got to find the heart of what makes that a movie. Okay, so it's just because something happened doesn't mean you have a story there. And it helps them learn to focus in on creating from something, but without having to add all the dimensions to it that makes it a story. Just because something happened doesn't mean it's it's a movie. You've got to find the movie in the idea. Um, and you know, for me, Pan Am was something I grew up with because uh, you know, in the 50s and 60s, it was the airlines and it was the one that was front and center, and and the one I think I never got to go on. We were supposed to go on a trip to Europe, it got canceled, and one of my things I was excited about was to fly Pan Am.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

That's great. In 2015, the United States Library of Congress selected Top Gun for preservation in the National Film Registry, finding it culturally, historically, and aesthetically significant. Top Gun came out in 1986 and was a huge blockbuster. It inspired two generations now of jet fighter pilots and both the Air Force and the Navy. How does that make you feel looking back almost 40 years? It'll be 40 years next year, that you and your co-writer created these characters and created this blockbuster movie that is part of cinematic history.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Yes, my partner Jim Cash, um who was a great writer, and we worked together as a team. What was interesting about Jim and I is that Jim lived in Lansing, Michigan, where I met him at Michigan State, and I lived out in California. So we never worked together in the same room. Oh, interesting. So we all did it long long distance and before the internet, and then be able to shift over the internet. But as far as um Top Gun, I mean, uh you hope as a writer that you will be able to write something that that uh people really relate to and become emotionally involved in. Um, and you hope something that, you know, that has longevity, that you know, that means something. So I didn't expect it, no one expected it to hit like it has. Um, but uh it's been very exciting. I mean, I still enjoy when I find little references and you know, uh here and there lines and stuff that people say and things. It's just it's it's fun to think that you know you're writing this little story and suddenly it has this huge cultural and international impact. It's it's really terrific and it's outstanding.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

And Kate, as one of his former students that you're now graduated and you're up-and-coming screenwriter yourself, what did you learn from from Jack and his experience in writing these blockbusters? Turner Hooch is another one, Dick Tracy, and so on. How was it being a student of this gentleman?

SPEAKER_00 14:35

You know what's really embarrassing, and I don't know if Mr. Epps knows this, but when I first got into USC, I actually fainted the night that I got this email saying you'd been accepted because I was thinking about all these great teachers and these great people that I knew were there, like Professor Epps. And when I got into his class, I I don't think I don't think anybody wants to admit to their professor that they're a big fan of theirs because you want to come off cool. You want to be like, I'm just I'm just regular like you, Jack, you know? And uh I think what I really appreciated though from his class is that as I said before, I would not be the writer that I am today had I not had Professor Epps encourage me to really just be the truest me that I am. And it sounds kind of crazy, I know, but I truly believe that being vulnerable and and writing about things that you know you might never think to write about. Like there was a essentially a romance movie that I would never have written that also came out of Professor Epps because he was just going, you know, if there's something that is on your mind, just write about it. And it and it speaks to you and it speaks to why are you thinking about this? It helps you be more human. I think in a weird way, not in a weird way, in the in the best way. Professor Epps helped me to be more human and helped me mature and grow, not even just as a writer, but as an adult. And I'm very, very thankful to him for that. So much so that we actually got him a t-shirt that's his top teacher as a for Top Gun.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

There you go, Top Teacher. So I reached out to some of my friends um that are obsessed with Top Gun. Sure. And I have a couple questions. The first question came from Andrew Royer. Did you and Jim Cash write Top Gun with a secondary intent of it possibly being a recruitment film for the Navy, or did that just come naturally after the success of the movie?

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Um that's a fair question. Um, no, we did not write as a recruitment film. We wrote it as a story of some of Americans' greatest heroes, of these amazing people in the military who give their lives and their heart and soul to this country to protect them. And it was just a very interesting uh assignment to get to, to write about this school, so to speak, which is very difficult to write about a school, um, one of the big challenges. So we were taken with the people we met, the sincerity of them, their dedication, and just their skill set, what they what they do on a daily basis, you know. One of the great things, and one of the reasons I want to do the project, um, well, first I had my private pilot's license. I got that at Michigan State University. They had a flying club. So I so when I heard of this project called Top Gun, and it was offered to us to write uh by Paramount Pictures, Jeffrey Katzenberg was head of production at that point. Um, I thought, well, if the movie doesn't get made, because we had no movie made at this point, at least I get to write and ride in a fighter jet. So you know it's very hard to get to ride in fighter jet. And uh what's interesting, when I got my first jet ride, it was incredibly acrobatic. You're pulling six G's at times. And when I got off, I called my partner Jim and said, This is not the movie we think this is. This is a physical event. These guys are like athletes. I mean, you can you cannot be pulling G's and and doing these spins and all this sort of stuff unless you're strong and you can withstand those G forces. So that that was pretty sensational for us just to just to dive in there and start to you know figure out what the story is.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

And another question from Andrew Are any of the characters based on actual real life aviators?

SPEAKER_02 18:28

The only store, the only aviator that we paid homage to was Peter Pettigrew, who was our uh technical director and he was assigned to us from the uh Navy. And Peter was a uh mid-killer in Vietnam and an amazing guy. Uh so we did call the only call sign we used was Viper uh after Pete, because he was Viper and we just as honor Pete we did. But every other character we made up, because from a legal point of view, I was very concerned about basing it on any other pilot because suddenly you you know they'll say, Oh, well, that's my story, and you don't have the rights to it. So we were we were not, you know, we created a fictional characters based on putting elements together of what we saw there, like the pieces of people we saw and just how they react. I mean, Maverick is um is a very unique character. We'll talk about that later, but but yes, we we not on anybody except for Pete Pettigrew.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

And I actually watched this film uh this morning again. I mean, I've seen I've seen it, I mean, I'm a baby of the 80s, so I've seen this movie countless times, but it it's been a while, so I I watched it again this morning, and I didn't realize until this morning that I mean it is an all-star cast, and some of these folks, I mean, this was their ticket to the stratosphere. I mean, Tom Cruise was up and coming at the time, Val Kilmer, the late Val Kilmer, but almost every character actor that's in here was extremely successful after this movie.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Well, the casting directors were terrific. They what they did, um, and there was no they're they're I think they're trying to get Academy Award for casting directors, which they should because that movie was so well cast. And I'm gonna take uh take a little credit here. When we were writing the movie, um, I Jim and I we decided we're gonna we're gonna write this movie for for Tom Cruise as Maverick. So we thought about that because I was a Tom Cruise fan. I was watching how it came up, and I thought Tom embodied the the character Maverick so well. And so when I gave the the script to the producers, uh uh uh Jerry Bruckheimer and Don Simpson, I said, Think Tom Cruise when you read this. And they next day, when they after they read it, they called and said, Yep, Tom's the guy. Um here's a little side story. Tom didn't want to do it. Interesting. He turned it down, but Paramount wanted him to do it. So they said, Look, why don't you go and we'll we'll get you a jet ride and see what you think. So he goes up to Point Magoo, he drives up on a motorcycle, his hair's all long, like from legend. And you know, fighter pilots go, Who's this guy? You know, so they took him up and they shook him all up and threw up in the plane, which is which gotta be careful because you're floating. And he came out of the plane, he goes, I gotta do this movie. I gotta love this. This is great. So Tom signed on.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

That's interesting. Yeah, I've never heard that before.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Another question from Andrew. Can you explain how you and Jim were influenced by the Cold War, but chose not to specifically mention the Soviet Union in the film? And I found that very interesting this morning. I mean, there's a red star, but no one says USSR, no one says Soviets. Would you care to comment on that?

SPEAKER_02 21:35

Well, there, you know, we were doing this with the cooperation of the Navy, and they cooperated. And they were very strong about not having, you know, a country attached to the little hassles. Because one of the things I learned doing research is that we didn't know we don't know this, but there's all sorts of hassles happening all the time around aircraft carriers. So they're they're doing these little dog fights, like that opening scene. Sequence was happening, and it just never gets reported. They're pushing people out of their zones. So we did we did have a name of a country uh at one point in time, but the Navy basically said, sorry, we think this could cause international relations, and we can't, you just have to, you know, give it a basic star, you know, red star.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

It reminded me a lot about Bruce Geller and Mission Impossible, because Mission Impossible, the TV show in the 1960s and early 1970s, they never mentioned uh a real country, it was always like a made-up country that you knew what it represented, but it was some made-up name.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

Yeah, it's it's just you know, we had to cooperate, and that's fine. It was just, but the thing is, there's enough enemies and there's enough things going on that we just know they're out there. So, you know, so that's that's that.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

So, Kate, I'm gonna put you on the spot. What do you think of Top Gun as someone that is younger and was born after the movie was already a blockbuster sensation?

SPEAKER_00 23:02

It it is interesting because I know it speaks a lot to the time period that it also premiered in because the Cold War was still happening. Well, one profound respect, admiration, uh such a deep inspiration from such an incredible movie and incredible writer. But I will uh say, I will admit that I hadn't actually seen the movie when I first met Professor Epps. I had seen other movies, but I hadn't seen Top Gun. Um, I think also because I thought I'd be too intimidated by Professor Epps if I had seen it. But then I watched it and it's an incredible movie. It is truly one of the greatest films that's ever been made. And he knows I love Titanic with all my heart, but it's up there. And so um it it truly, I think, also impacts the way we write today or or the stories that I write today. I also think a lot about Maverick and Mr. Epps didn't mention it, but when you were talking about, oh, was it inspired by people? I know Maverick is Mr. Epps that is my professor. And so it also is really um, it was really amazing actually to watch that movie after I'd met him because it was seeing my professor on screen, or I was seeing my awesome the the way my professor thinks on screen. And obviously I'm talking to him in class, but it just was a different experience and and kind of a magical experience. And it was just really fun to to finally see that. And I I still hold it very fondly in my heart to this day.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

It's interesting. So I first watched this movie when I was six when it first came out in 1986. I remember my uncle uh took me to the theater to watch the movie, and then it seems like I I watched it every decade after. So I'm in my fourth decade now. And I never realized how emotional the death of the character Goose was. Uh, and it really hit me this morning um differently than it's hit me when I was younger. And you know, that's a credit to storytelling. Kate, you as an upcoming screenwriter and a student of Professor Epps, and Jack, as a screenwriter and a professor, would you like to talk a little bit about the screenwriting process and kind of what Alfred Hitchcock was able to do is play with the character's emotions and the audience's emotions like on a piano. Um, I'd like to have a conversation about the process.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

Let me do one thing. Before we jump into the process, let me just talk about that moment. Sure, because that moment is a very important moment. Yes, it is a midpoint, which means you want to have something happen that throws you into the back half of the movie, that that changes the movie in some specific way that ups the stakes and makes the ending even more important. Um, and uh that came out of talking to the pilots, you know, because I had access to the pilots and the great guys. We went out to have um a little coffee at a little shop, and they're sitting around about seven guys, all experienced. Um, many have been in Vietnam, and they started talking about losing somebody, uh people, the pilot they'd had flown with, and they were still mourning the loss. And this is, you know, 12, 15 years later, you could feel the pain never left them. And I was thinking as a writer, I said, geez, if I could just capture that moment and make the audience feel that too, of that sense of loss, uh, that would be really emotional. And so one of the things you don't do is take the most popular character in the story and kill them in the middle. It's just something you don't do. But um, I was doing research and because I was going through all sorts of things with the military, and they talked about sometimes when you eject, you have to be careful because you'll hit your head on the ejection on the on the canopy. And uh so I wrote that down my note. And then we decided that, you know, we didn't want to most aviation movies start with a death. They really do a crash in the beginning, and flying is dangerous. And and that's like throwing away a life away. But this we wanted to basically involve the characters emotionally, the audience emotionally in the story. And so we we created that that that moment and we just thought about it a lot because we didn't want to make it happen, but we know we had to. Um, and it just emotionally it pulls the audience in. They feel the sense of loss, they feel the sense of what Maverick is going through, they feel, they understand it. Um, and you know, that's that's what you would try to achieve in storytelling. Get the audience emotionally involved in the story so they care, they have a stake in it. They're just not watching pretty pictures.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Yeah, good point. And I'll I'll be honest with you. So, you know, as a member of the audience, uh, at that particular point, you thought that Maverick did something wrong and you're questioning him. And then when he was exonerated, you're like, oh, I didn't see that coming. I thought that he was going to be, you know, he did something wrong. And then also in the beginning of the movie, watching it again, you know, for the 40th time, I realized that you the audience always thought that Maverick was going to be top gun and win in the class, but he didn't, uh, which is interesting. But then in the real world, he saved the one that did, Iceman. So again, that was an interesting plot point that as an adult now, I'm I'm able to process a little bit differently than as a kid watching this movie.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Well, he uh it it was something from a screenwriter's point of view. We're talking craft now, is that we wanted to make Maverick the underdog. So that's why he wasn't originally going to Top Gun. So he only went because Cougar basically couldn't do it. He threw in his his wing, so he was second chance. He was second, you know, so already he's he's playing from behind. He has to catch up, which causes him to then to emotionally have to push himself harder and and and it creates more tension there. And then his loss in the back half means that now he's, you know, is he gonna overcome this loss? Would we overcome this loss? And how will he be able to get it back? And you know, you know, talk to me goose is is is a very famous line. And you know, we all have those talk to me goose moments, so you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Kate, would you like to add anything about the character development and screenwriting?

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Well, I was gonna say the the goose midpoint is specifically called that for all classes at USC. We all refer to the midpoint as the goose midpoint. We know that that is so profoundly impactful and necessary in a good script. And so if you're if your script doesn't have a goose midpoint, Professor Epps would also ask us, he'd be like, What's what's the goose midpoint, guys? What's the goose midpoint? And it's so important because that really is the moment in a screenplay where everything changes, and then you know that you're off to the races, so to speak. And that to the point in in Top Gun, literally the goose midpoint. Everything changes. Um and but I will say I was gonna ask Professor Epps though, because we were talking about how the movie didn't have Russia or a country or anything like that be an enemy. Uh, I always thought, and Professor Epps can correct me, that the movie actually is sort of pro-piece. You don't think about it that way, but it really is, especially with the friendships made. Again, the there's not an actual war that happens. Am I wrong in thinking that though?

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Well, I don't know if I'd call it pro-piece. I think it's the sense that there's there's always an edge that always is is a danger uh, you know, to the country in a sense, and therefore we have to be um vigilant in terms of protecting that's that's you know, that the Navy is called the tip of the spear because they're out there. They're not, they don't not like the Army is on the ground in America. And I'm not saying anything bad about them, but the Navy is the tip of the spear. They are right at the edge of the front line, which means they're the we're the first place where these things happen. Um uh and so I think it was that sense that, you know, vigilant, say vigilant. And these are the people who do it for us.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

As Kate will tell you, because she's a listener of the podcast, sometimes I put my guests on the spot. And when they don't give me an answer, I uh start asking them the same question in different ways until I get the answer I want. I'm gonna ask you a question. So you heard uh Kate, as your former student, talk about the goose midpoint, and you have been a very successful screenwriter in Hollywood, and now you're inspiring young screenwriters in at USC. How does that make you feel that you have made such an impact on all of these different people?

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Well, it makes me feel good. I mean, because you know, I want to share my experience. Uh, you know, that's one of the great things about teaching, it's just sharing it. And I want to help students. I mean, one of the great things about USC is we have very, very good students. They are they're they're dedicated, they come here to work hard, um, and they, you know, they they they really want to learn and they're smart. So it's it's a great environment uh to teach in because you have a very ready group of people who are hungry to learn and and they they absorb the material, and then we do a lot of a lot of writing to help them to just to get to know their process, because there is no one way to write. It's just it just doesn't happen. Everybody's got their own process and they have to trust it and they have to learn. Now, they can learn some steps along the way, they can learn how to develop stories better, they can learn what they need to have, but ultimately it's about them to choose what they want to write and and what their process is. Because you talk to two writers, or you talk to a group of writers, 30 writers, and each want to have a different process. It's it's just because it's important that you find your process as a writer and how how you do it. And you learn the other things, but you don't want to be clouded with a bunch of, well, you have to do this on page 15 and this on page 30 and pages. That's that gets in the way. It's not a formula, it's about people, it's about characters, it's about lives in crisis. And I think that's one of the most important things to understand as a writer. What is the crisis the main character is going through? What is the life? What are the hopes and fears? Because that's the thing. What do we hope for the character? What do we fear for the character? And you're thinking of Maverick, what do we hope for Maverick? What do we fear for Maverick? So, you know, you can see that that's we're we're we're waiting for something. We don't know what's going to happen next. And that's that's good storytelling because you're you're holding the audience on edge and they care. And that's the most important thing is make the audience care.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

So let's talk about Pan Am for a moment. So, Kate, uh, you were uh in class, you came up with this idea about Pan Am. Obviously, Jack, you uh are aware of Pan Am and you're part of aviation history yourself with Top Gun. Tell me a little bit about that initial conversation when Kate brought up an idea idea about Pan Am.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

Well, it happened a while ago, so it's hard for me to have the exact conversation. But you know, Kate's an amazing writer. She's she's she is a gifted writer and she's a natural, and she's an excellent storyteller. Um, and that's the thing. She's also a very good writer, like words to the page. She's a very good writer. Um, she pulls you in and tells a very good story. And uh, and she is is developing interesting, you know, characters that we relate to. Um and I I think it, you know, the tough thing on that is if anything, feedback I might have given her is it's how do you open this story up? How do you open it up? So it's not just about the accident, but what's our what's our emotional involvement in this story and who do we identify with? So I think that's who's it about rather than what what's it about? It's who's it about.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

That's a very good point.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

I'm so happy I have a sound clip of Mr. Epps saying, I'm a great writer. Thank you for that. That's a very sweet.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

It's true, Kate. Because you have you're natural and you've been working at it for a you know for a long time. You're dedicated and you're also open to learning. Uh, and but you have a process, you have your process, and I think that's really important. I think that's it stood you very well.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

Thank you. I wouldn't be the writer I am, as I said, without you though.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

To his point, though, about process the process, he has a note card process where you put everything out. And I will now admit that I've never done it. But that was part of our homework assignment.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

Well, yeah, and and that's fine because everybody's got to find the way that works for them. For me, note cards are for me to structure a story and to see it. And I like using note cards, uh, it actually changed my life as a writer because I could I don't have to start on one, go to two, go to three, go to four. That's not how my brain works. My brain works. I'll start, I've got a scene. Oh, uh in the middle, I've got a scene uh at the beginning, I got a scene at the end. I don't know what goes in the middle, but I've got these moments. And so I can lay out my story and see it and build it in uh uh pieces at a time. Uh as a kid, I loved to play puzzles. And building a story is a puzzle. You're you're solving a puzzle. All these different pieces, all these different things have to go together in a certain way. And like a like a puzzle, you don't start at one and go to two to go three. You find the pieces that you start to build, and then you build out and you fit finish the whole puzzle. So I don't go one, two, three. I I might one of the things I always, as a writer, is what's the ending? I like to know what the ending is before I'm starting. I like to know what I'm getting to. I can't at the say, okay, now what how do I finish this? Finishing is the most important part in a sense. That's where the audience is in your hands, and you know, they they have to care about the outcome.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

And I'm sure everyone always talks about Top Gun with you, but I like to bring up another film of yours, Turner and Hoot. The dog in that film is very is a character in itself. Yeah. How was it writing this screenplay? You know, you're basically writing for the character of the dog.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Well, it was fun. It was it was a rewrite. It had we had a first draft, and we were brought in to uh, you know, just add this we did a lot of rewriting brought in with existing script because we're character writers. So we we bring up the character stories um and usually you know add more dimension. So and that's what we did with this. We we what we our our our thing was it's the world's cleanest guy and the and the world's messiest dog. We throw them together because you've got conflict. I mean, it's like you would never put these two people together. Um, and it was fun to sort of work with Tom. Tom was in the meetings and so sitting there with Tom Hanks and he's throwing lines out. And he, Tom's a great guy, and it's he's absolutely who you think he is. He's he's really the true guy. And uh he just, you know, he funny lines and stuff like that. And for us, it was to build Tom's character. Give, you know, the one thing you start learning when you're working with actors is they have to have something to play. Actors don't want to stand there and just recite lines, they have to have a journey they're going through. Good actors want that. So we had to, you know, create that arc for Tom's character, create that relationship for Hooch, um, and you know, build build the story out of it. Um, so that, you know, we, you know, we're involved. Again, it's emotionally involved.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

And another movie that you worked on, uh, The Secret of My Success with Michael J. Fox, how was it writing with Michael J. Fox?

SPEAKER_02 38:13

Well, unfortunately, I didn't get to meet Michael um because uh I again we were brought in to do a rewrite, major rewrite, and where we basically took the script and threw about 90% out of it and just took the concept and then started writing it again. Um it was fun writing for Michael. So we knew he was doing it. So it was fun writing for him. And, you know, if you can, I like writing for a character if you know who you're writing for. Legal Eagles were writing for Robert Redford and uh and Deborah Winger. So it's fun writing it for those. Uh actors generally tend not to be involved in the development process unless they're producers. Um, so that's why Tom Hanks was very unique in that. Um, but um writing for an actor means you can be very specific for that actor, knowing what they do well, um, and give them those opportunities to use their talents.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

And getting back to Top Gun for a moment, you mentioned uh going up in some some plane rides with fighter pilots. This is this is from my friend Chris Kroom. Explain the process of there's a lot of aviation lingo. You said you're a pilot yourself. Explain the writing process of trying to get things as accurate as possible.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Well, that that's that's an interesting question because when I got there, uh I set up interviews and I interviewed about 30 pilots. Um, and uh at first the Navy was sitting in, they had a representative, and I said, This isn't gonna work. You you can't have this person sitting in here, and they pulled her out. And and so, because they didn't say anything anyway, but the other Navy rep they're not gonna say anything at all. So, and they never said anything that was, you know, uh was wrong or anything like that. But they were talking, and I didn't know what the heck they were talking about because they were throwing all these words out all the time, and I didn't know what they meant. I wrote, you know, like transcribed all these uh, you know, interviews, and uh we talked to Pete. Well, what does this mean in all this stuff? So when we were writing the movie, we made a decision early on, we're not gonna explain any of it. Just as I didn't know it, we're not gonna let the audience we're not gonna say, oh, and that means this, you know. So we just wanted to speak in the language. And again, Peter Pettigrew on set, helping make sure that the language was correct, that you know, that we used the way you know what they spoke and the words they used, acronyms and things like that. We wanted to make it authentic, uh, as much as authentic as we could make it, because we had such admiration for these pilots, and we felt a sense of duty to basically represent them in a good way.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

My friend Dan Brown has a question, and this movie is iconic for many reasons, but one of them is music. I mean, the the Kenny Loggins theme song is iconic in itself. How inner instrumental was the soundtrack to the success of the film? And did you have any input on the song selections?

SPEAKER_02 41:03

Well, the producers are Don Simpson and Jerry Bruck Eyber. They were known for great soundtracks. Um Flashdance, it was one of their movies. So it at that time, it was sort of the concept that you want to release a soundtrack ahead of the movie so that brings people in. I mean, it was sort of a marketing, it's a different period, no one cares about that anymore. Um, and so they basically created all those the musical score. They not created, but they they brought in the musical director and and and and commissioned songs and things like that. So all credit goes to Simpson Bruckheimer.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

And another question from Dan, and it's the same thing, you know, in the 1980s and the 1990s, there were lots of movies making fun of other movies in satire. Uh, what is your opinion on the Hotshots movies? And did any of the creative team of those films reach out to you during the production?

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Hot Shots was hysterical. I loved it. It was a great satire. And frankly, there's nothing, it's it's a great compliment that someone wants to satire something you've done. So I actually laughed, I thought it was fun. They used one of the producers on that, who was one of the producers on Top Gun, not a main producer, but a lower level producer, to create the feelings and how to reenact uh the planes and all that material and stuff. So there was a connection uh through one of the producers.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

And final question about Top Gun, and then we can move on to other subjects. Uh, this one's from Ryan Sines. Did you ever ride the Top Gun ride at King's Island near Cincinnati? No, I did not, Ryan. Right. Nope, nope. How does that make you feel, though? Like there was an amusement park that had a ride dedicated to the movie that you and your friend wrote.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

Well, I mean, it makes me feel great. It makes me feel, you know, uh excited, but it's not what our goal was. Our goal was to entertain the audience. Um, and it's just amazing that that movie got so deep inside. I mean, you also have to, uh, Tony Scott was an amazing director, and a lot of the credit goes to Tony Scott for how he visualized that movie. Um, because nobody had made a movie like that before in terms of the cuts and and the and the shots. I mean, he he made us feel like we were flying in the air, and of course, we weren't on that movie. Um, and so uh getting that combination of a great director who can visualize the script like that and make it come alive, that was fantastic. And once again, that's uh Simpson Breckheimer. They hired uh Tony Scott, who was not at that point the type of director you would think you'd hire for that. But he had done a uh commercial, I think a SOD commercial with jets, and so they thought that he would know how to uh photograph jets. You want you want to basically make a movie that connects with people. That's that's the concept. I mean, we were never for once thinking that we're we're making this iconic movie. We we that was not our goal. Our goal was to entertain the audience. You know, we're I mean, basically we're writers for hire, right? We have a job to do. Our job to do is produce a great script. And but we're also with Jim and I are film lovers. We're film buffs. And you know, we have the same instincts.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Interesting. Definitely lightning in a bottle with that film in 1986. Kate and Jack, tell me a little bit about your favorite films, your favorite directors, your favorite screenwriters.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

Well, favorite screenwriters right here. It's Jack Epps Jr. Um, but as I said before, and Professor Epps has heard me lecture so much about it. My favorite film of all time, and Top Gun's a close second, is Titanic. Professor Epps was the one to tell me this that the ship itself in Titanic is a character. And that's what makes it so profound in of itself. I also could go into a lot of nerdy analysis about how the ship sort of represents Rose and where the ship goes down, like it's also the death of her life. And like Jack has to die. I am a defender of that. He does need to go, besides just the historical accuracy of he was third class, he would have died anyway. But two, the whole point is that she was suicidal at the start of this film. And then he helps her learn how to live and the importance of living. And when he dies, that is it's not the goose midpoint, because that's not the midpoint of the movie, but it acts sort of similarly to the goose midpoint, where when he dies, it's the test of her strength of character. And can she go on uh after that, which she does? And I think it's such a profound and impactful film. The production value, insane. James Cameron built a ship and sunk the ship. We don't have that today, and I'm very sad about it. Um, but but it always was uh a big influence for me for writing and also strange. I shouldn't say strange, but the commitment James Cameron had going down to the Titanic. We also saw the Titan submersible. That is a scary situation, but uh I have mad respect for for such a uh determination and commitment to get the true essence of a real historical event, which I hope to also encapsulate in the Pan Am script.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

Check. So yeah, there's so many great movies. It's it's hard to say one. Um uh basically uh The Godfather is an amazing film. It stands out to me as something that just it has a great sense of world to it and it pulls you into this world, incredibly well run. So, you know, Francis Ford is Copel is one of my favorite directors. Billy Wilder, The Apartment. Um, Billy Wilder is my go-to guy, and for Jim I he was our go-to guy. If we had a question about screenwriting, what would Billy Wilder do? I mean, that was really the question we'd always ask because Billy Wilder was a writer, a director, um, just excellent. I mean, all his films are great. Um I like uh um, you know, Back to the Future to me is one of the great films of the 80s, the great films of all time. Um, you know, in fact, I I like it so much I made a mug for myself called Think McFly. And uh every day, you know, that line of itself, because whenever I make a mistake, I always go, think McFly, think, you know. So um It Happened One Night is one of the greatest uh romances, uh rom-com type movies of all time. And Jim and I wrote a lot of uh what we call Charm and Chase, which is romance and yet action. And that was that was the things that we did. Um so just you know, a lot of a lot of Chinatown is another thing. Um that's an amazing Robert Town, the dean of screenwriting for my book. Uh screen write screenwriting is rewriting. I got a chance to interview Robert Town, um, and that was great. Just to here's a legend. I could sit in a room with him, ask him questions about writing, and uh it was a great conversation. And uh, you know, to to meet one of your legends and sit down in the same room with him is really outstanding. So there's just so many films, so many great films that just stay with you.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Professor and I have also talked a lot about it's a wonderful life, too, as it's really yes.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

Brilliant film. It has everything. Yeah, you know, it's it's just it pulls you in emotionally, you care. I'll I'll I'll do my dreaming steward. Uh Mary, I want to go to the moon, Mary. I'll just just say it. I'll lash out, I'll lash all the moon, Mary.

SPEAKER_00 48:12

Something you don't know is that Professor Epps is also brilliant at any impression. That I've at least that I've amazing.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

There you go. You heard it on the Pantium podcast first. Kate, you told me that it's there's a waiting list to get into his classes. Can you talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Well, I mean, look at this guy, he's so popular. Of course, there's a waiting list. It is very uh to get into his class because everybody knows he's a terrific, terrific writer. He also was the former head of John Wells' division for television writing at USC. So he also was the big kahuna, you know, like you don't he is the top dog. Um, and I think everybody obviously wants to be in his class, one, because it's Jack Epps, but two, he also helped. I in my memory, the best stories of my peers were in Professor Epps' class. And so I think we knew that we were gonna get a wonderful script just under his tutelage as well. And so, yeah, so there's definitely a waiting list, and I am very grateful that I got in.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

And we talked a little bit, Kate, about your PANAM script, which we don't want to give too much out because it's in development. But can you and Jack talk about some of the scripts that you have worked on that have not been produced yet that you're really proud of?

SPEAKER_00 49:40

The script that Professor Epps really helped me with under his class is a script called Next Time Around that was a romance, like an epic romance throughout time. It started in the 1940s, they're making a movie. The movie that they were making actually was which took place in different time periods, was actually reflecting the relationship that they had. And when the movie was falling apart, so was their relationship. It was it's a very kind of old Hollywood type film, but it was a romance. And I'm somebody who uh I have a very, a very funny love life. As I was telling Tom Lily on the phone yesterday about Mr. Fs, you don't know this, but very quick side note was I was a girlfriend for a week, and then the guy found out he was also related to the Hatfields and McCoys, and I'm distantly related to Hatfields McCoys. He was like, Oh my god, we're cousins, and now people write people that we were cousins, and that was that. And so my friends now tell me, they'll they'll ask me, they'll be like, Kate, how's your cousin? And I'm like, I hate that this is my love life. So uh that romance script is a script that I never would have written. I have a very, I don't want to say catastrophic love life, but a very funny love life. And I never would have written it except I proposed it to Professor Repps and was going, you know, I don't think this is that great of an idea. And he said, no, there's a lot of heart there. And also to the point of us going in and him helping us be our truest selves. I was suppressing this story and this part in me that just needed to be told. And he knew that and he said, just go. And then I went and I did something that I've never ever written before, anything like that. I typically write very epic action movies. And not that this isn't an epic movie, but it's not an action movie by any by any means. And uh I would not have written that had Professor Epps not helped me. And I'm I'm very proud of myself for taking a risk.

SPEAKER_02 51:39

I like that word taking a risk because that's what you have to do as a writer. You got you got to go for it. And the thing is just don't monitor yourself as you're going. Don't go, how am I doing today? Oh, I didn't write good today. I had a bad day. Well, everybody has a bad day. You know, small steps add up to big steps. Just allow yourself to write badly, have a bad day, have a bad script. It doesn't matter. Let's say the whole script you don't like. There's some nugget in there that you can rewrite. There's some nugget that you can pull out and say, okay, here are the good ideas. I've got to rethink this. I mean, it's just it's part of the process. It I don't care. It doesn't come out of our pens or our typewriters or our computers, just really perfect. It comes out as like thoughts, rambles, it's good, it's great, and you piece it together and it grows over time. So you have to give yourself the room to write something over time and not be judgmental. But you also have to get people who you trust to give you good notes, to give you feedback. You can't just give yourself notes because you're too caught into it. And you have to get some distance and perspective. And that's one of the most important things in rewriting is finding people you trust to be able to read your work and to give you good notes. And and I was talking, interviewed Robert Town of my book. You know, he said, you know, the the most important note is what's working. Because you've got to know what's working in the script, because something is working, because people tend to just tell you all the negative stuff and not what's working. So one one way you say is okay, what they didn't mention means it's working, you know. But always ask, what did you like? You know, and because those are the things you want to build from.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

Jack, any stories that you're working on that you'd like to share with the audience? Any unproduced scripts that you're really proud of? Well, I have a bunch of unproduced scripts.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

It's part of the role of a writer, is you, you know, we uh Jim and I, our first three scripts never never got produced. Uh, first one was Izzymo about Prohibition agents. It was sort of a sting-like movie called Izzy Mo, who would dress up in costume and try to bust speakeasies. Um that was our first script. We got an option for it, which was great. We got some money, but never got made. Our second script was called Whereabouts. It was uh it was about a uh no actually script was old gold. Sorry. It was another spec script uh about a treasure hunter who's a day late and a dollar short, and he's looking for gold that was hunted somewhere planted in San Francisco. It sold the script, but never got produced. Um and then whereabouts was another script that was a charm and chase movie set in New York about a mystery writer who was going to pay somebody to find him, only he ends up dead. And so the two people who are trying to find him um are basically wanted for the murder. So they are basically Charm and Chase trying to solve out what's happened here. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 54:27

I'm gonna make a declaration, and I promise that you USC did not pay me. Uh, anytime there's a really, really successful movie, general audiences give all the credit to the actor and the director. In my experience, it's always the screenwriter and always the composer. I think that those two people or peoples are highly underrated and get kind of get forgotten in all of the blockbuster excitement that's going on. So I just like to tell our audiences to always concentrate and give credit to the screenwriter because without the screenwriter, you wouldn't have a good script, therefore, you wouldn't have anything for a good actor to do a good job on.

SPEAKER_02 55:15

Well, thank you for that. Thank you for that. Because, you know, it it is part of the writer's life. You're not going to get patted on the head very often, you know, it's just that, and and and you get replaced often, you know, all that sort of stuff. It's like, um uh I've worked with great directors who have worked with me. You know, Ivan Reitman was, I really enjoyed working with Ivan on legal eagles. Uh and you know, directors like Tony Scott bring they bring a lot to it, but we're a partnership. You know, they don't take blank pages and and put blank pages up there. Um, the thing that I've seen that that I'll I'll come out against a little bit right now is a lot of writer directors. That's that seems to be happening more and more. And what I what I feel a lot of the time is the script needs more work. That the you know the director did not have the distance to basically take it through that next process. And I just think something's being lost by by not having writers and directors and and keep it separate. Uh that's just what I believe.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

Good point. Kate, would you like to comment on that?

SPEAKER_00 56:14

I agree that it gets really hard when a writer is also a director, because to Professor Epp's point, they don't have enough distance. They're too involved, also. A writer, I think also we we talk about killing your babies when you have to rewrite a script and you might really like where it is, but you'll get feedback or whatnot. Or if a studio executive is saying, hey, change this, you're gonna change it. But if you're also the director and writer, that's two positions that then get interwoven and then you're almost too involved with the script where this isn't just your baby, it's you, it's it's too much a reflection of what you're going through or something, and you get too involved to the point that if there's a change suggested, they don't often change. I do think there's some directors, uh writers that are open to it, but but it is something we've noticed at school with writer-director students that they they weren't open to changing the the script because at that point you're too involved, you don't have enough disassessed professor upset.

SPEAKER_01 57:18

And that kind of makes the editing process very difficult, also, because you need to have an outside perspective to say, hey, this story needs to be structured this way. We need to cut these scenes. They're great scenes, but they really don't add anything to the overall story. Yeah. Would you guys like to talk about the editing process of a movie?

SPEAKER_02 57:39

Well, I mean, editors are it's it's in many ways a second rewrite, uh, you know, because they're taking they're taking what's been shot and now putting it together. Great editors, they're they're taking those elements and they're putting it into, you know, the telling the best story from what they have. Um, and it it's it's a real talent and on how people cut films together and you know choose different takes and that situation.

SPEAKER_04 58:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

It reminds me of I always give advice to my friends and colleagues, uh, never write your own resume because you're gonna sell yourself short. And this it for was for whatever reason, uh listening to both of you um brought that to my uh memory.

SPEAKER_00 58:20

That's a good statement. I should give my resume to my friends now.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

Yeah, totally, because you know you're you're selling yourself short because you've worked on a lot of things, and you oh, it's no big deal. I'm not gonna put on my resume, but you're selling yourself short.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

It's true.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

So anything else uh the two of you would like to add about Pan Am, about screenwriting, about your relationship?

SPEAKER_02 58:46

Well, I I've enjoyed uh teaching Kate. Uh, had her two classes and we've stayed in touch, which is nice. Um uh it was a great class too. We've had the students in the classes were terrific. So it's the whole experience was really great. Um, and I'm excited for Kate. You know, I I one of the things is to see the talent and just, you know, want her to to work hard and push forward because she does have the talent to get there.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

And Jack, are you working on any future projects?

SPEAKER_02 59:18

Not at this stage. No. I uh at this stage I'm retired from it and I'm just you know, just enjoying uh that point of view. You know, enjoying the teaching. That to me is is the fun thing. That's that that is my the thing that gives me purpose and meaning.

SPEAKER_01 59:33

And next year will be the 40th anniversary of the release of Top Gun. Do you have any plans to mark that anniversary?

SPEAKER_02 59:44

Um yeah. Uh uh I haven't really thought about it, but I I you know maybe I'll watch a movie or something like that. You know, but um it's it'll be exciting. It'll be exciting that, you know, I can't believe it's that long ago because it doesn't feel like it. That experience was was, you know, right there. Let me tell you one thing. The tough thing about writing Top Gun was that you're you gotta write the conflict, right? When you're taking a story, you've got to find the conflict. So when I was doing the research on Top Gun, all these guys got along. And the whole thing is about teamwork, getting together, working together, supporting each other. And that's all I saw. And I was going, like, my God, what's the story here? And it's it's a school, you know what I mean? And I'm I'm thinking, I just I don't see where the conflict is. And I'm just I'm starting to bang my head because you start with a blank sheet of you start with 120 pages of blank, and you've got to turn that into a movie. So what is it? You know, you just don't copy down what people say. And I was out on the flight deck at NSA Miramar, where Top Gun School is located, and I was looking at all the F-14s lined up in a row, and I'm going, what is the conflict here? And I'm seeing plane after plane after plane. And I just say, Well, what if one of the guys doesn't get along? What if one of the guys is pushing against this, everybody getting along? What does that create? And right there, we created the concept of the character Maverick was oh, okay, he's this guy who doesn't get along. And then the name came out of it because we didn't want to use any of the um call signs of the pilots because I didn't want to have somebody say, Hey, you used my call sign, you were telling my story. So I said, we'll make up our own call signs. And I came to Maverick um because that's who the character was. He was a maverick. And so when we we put that in as a call sign, we thought, you know, they'd throw that out. They say, oh, it's two on the nose, you can't use that, you know. Um, but I was surprised they didn't. And then Iceman, well, if you've got a maverick, you need an Iceman. If you got a Maverick, you need somebody who is just so cold. He is just the spot-on pilot who is going to do everything they supposed to be done and do it right. So that was that is where the movie came together because I had my central core of conflict. And at that point, the movie started to write itself.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

So, Jack, I have to ask, uh, the new Top Gun sequel, uh, and you have a writing credit for creating the characters. What did you think of the new movie, Top Gun Maverick?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:02

I thought they did a really good job with the movie. I think they they brought the characters forward. We saw them later in life, and and and I thought it was really excellent. Um, and I think that uh I was very touched by the Val Kilmer scene. I was really was so pleased they brought Val back. And I and I just I was moved by that moment because it it really was was was great. It was a little mission impossible for me, but I think it was the right thing to do for the movie because to have gone back and made the same movie would not was not what you want to see in the sequel. So I think they took it to the next step, and it was well shot, well produced, well written. And and Tom's a star. How can you not love Tom? You know, so uh I was happy with it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:41

Professor Epps, I don't know if you know this, but when Top Gun 2 premiered, and then in the opening credit scenes, it says, based upon the characters created by Jack Epps Jr. and your writing partner, everybody in my audience in my theater was clapping and going, woo! And I just hope you know that like that influence, even though they know that that wasn't a movie written by by you and your partner, it wouldn't have existed without the original Top Gun. There's there's no way that movie could even be a a smidgen of what it is without you, and everybody in the audience knew it. And so I know I just I just hope you know that.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:16

Well, that's cool. I mean, that's a cool thing. I I hope you know they make another sequel. I hope that they continue to keep the legacy going.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:24

And and it's because they're really great characters created by you.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:29

Well, I'm glad I could play it, play a play a role in that. I mean, that's really what you know, what you want to do. And uh it's I mean, we kid about it a lot in the family and all that sort of stuff. And you know, I do have a need for speed uh coffee mug. So, you know, I feel the need for speed. So, and that actually is one of the top 100 lines from the AFI. I feel the need, the need for speed. So that's a cool thing, too. You go, okay, one of the best lines in in the history of motion pictures. That's a cool thing. I like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:57

Yeah, that's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:59

And that maverick is Professor X.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:02

I think my wife would agree with you, but also. Do you not feel that way? Uh, it's a character I created. You know, it's not autobiographical. I mean, the only autobiographical part of it is I was a goaltender uh in ice hockey and played it my entire life. Up uh up I played um I played it as an adult. I actually practiced with the Kings on two occasions. So it creates it was part of the character of Maverick means it's only one number one goaltender. Only one guy can be in the ice at a time. So I use that experience of how I get all those other people out of the way when you come to, you know, you come to a a uh uh you know a training session and you're auditioning for the role, you got to be the one who ends up getting the role. You gotta be the number one goaltender on the ice, or otherwise you're sitting there watching other play, other people play. So that's somewhat where Maverick came from, was my experience and also Jam's experience as a quarterback in high school. You want to be the guy throwing the ball. You don't want to be the guy sitting on the sideline watching the other guy throw the ball. And that's sort of what Maverick came out of that personal experience of I got to be the starting goaltender, I gotta be in the ice. All these guys want to make it. No, I'm I'm gonna beat them.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:12

Very interesting. Anything you'd like to add, Kate?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

I have a to go back to Pan Am, I have a big admiration for Pan Am. So I'm just so grateful to be here. I first learned about it from a good friend back home. He was a huge Pan Am fan. So when he was eight, he had all these Pan Am books, and I had all these books about the Titanic. The Titanic obsession was actually already there before I ever saw the movie. And we exchanged these books and just told each other about these events. And so that's how I first learned about it. And it's crazy when I first presented this story to Professor Epps that not many of my peers knew about Pan Am and they didn't know about Flight 1736 or any of uh Operation Baby Lift, anything that was big that Pan Am has. Influence in the aviation industry as well or made an impact. And it's crazy to think about how just these little moments can change your life forever. And you just have these deep admirations for things. And uh if I hadn't known that person, I wouldn't have uh thought about this script idea. If I hadn't known Professor Epps, this script also wouldn't be a thing. If I hadn't met Tom, I wouldn't also have the knowledge to create something so amazing. I think people should hear about. And so I'm just very grateful and blessed to know you guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:33

Well, that's that's very kind of you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:34

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:35

For me with Pan Am was again, it was uh it was Pan Am Blue, is what I think of when I had that great blue. Um, and well, I never got to fly in Pan Am. It was one of the major airlines. But I will say this as a as a little kid flying with my parents, we would get we have to dress up in a suit and tie because flying was very much you had to dress up, you didn't go out there looking shabby with blue jeans. So, and then as a little kid, they would bring out badges and give me a little flight, flight badge, and occasionally walk me up to the uh into the cockpit to basically see how the cockpit works and what it was like. And that was the coolest thing in the world, you know, to go up and look at a cockpit. You know, I mean, they're not doing that today, that's for sure, but to be there and look at all. I mean, I never touched the control or anything like that. It was just like look at this this space and just you're just overwhelmed that these people knew what all these buttons and dials were and and all the little things going on. I'm looking around and go, This is the coolest thing uh ever, which was my motivation for getting my private pilot's license. And then private pilots is my motivation for writing Top Gun. If I didn't have the private pilots, I would not have written that. I just wouldn't have interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:47

Well, I'd like to thank both of you to coming on this program, and it's been an honor to know both of you and to hear the inside story of your life, Jack, has been inspirational. And also knowing how you inspired all of your students and listening to some of your students has just been great. Uh, you've made an impact in Hollywood audiences and also your students. And that that's just a great legacy to have.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:15

Well, thank you. And I'd like to thank Kate for saying such nice things. Um, I just enjoy working with with people and I enjoy just just helping them on their way. I, you know, I just I just I get a lot of pleasure and satisfaction from it. And when you have students like Kate, it it makes it even that much more special. But uh Tom, it's a pleasure meeting you and Kate, always good to see you. So glad to like glad to be here today.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:39

And I'm glad that the Pan Am podcast brought us all together.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:43

I know, I've had so much fun. Thank you so much for having me and for just getting to talk to some awesome people.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:49

Thank you very much. Pan Am was a pioneer in air travel and still stands as one of the most iconic and innovative airlines in aviation history. That legacy lives on at the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York, where you can explore the rich history of the aircraft and individuals at the heart of the company known as the world's most experienced airline. For more information about the Pan Am Museum, check out our website at www.thepan Amuseum.org. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. As was once a tagline in one of our commercials, we would greatly appreciate your support to help the Pan Am Museum continue making the going great. You can also support the museum by shopping on our online store for all things Pan Am accessories, apparel, jewelry, books, models, and posters. We want to hear from you. If you have a question for us or want to share your story, our email address is podcast at the Pan Ammuseum.org. As flight crews once said to passengers departing for their destinations around the world, thank you for flying, Pan América.