SPEAKER_11 0:14

Welcome to the Pan Am Podcast, brought to you by the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York. This podcast and our museum are dedicated to celebrating the legacy of the world's most iconic airlock, Pan American World Airways. My name is Tom Betty, and I'm the host of this program. Thank you for joining us. The Pan Am Museum Foundation is a nonprofit organization. Please visit our website for more information at the Pan Am Museum.org. Again, our website is the Panamuseum.org. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. If you are using Apple Podcasts, please consider leaving a review. It will help others discover this program. This podcast is sponsored by the generous personal support of Mr. Adam Aaron, the CEO and chairman of AMC Theaters. He is also president of our sister organization, the Pan Am Historical Foundation. If you're not familiar with Pan Am, welcome. We are honored to have you here, and for you to learn about what we're all about. If you already know of Pan Am, worked for or flown on the airline, or just love our history, it's good to be with you again. So with that, let's get this episode in the air, so to speak. Welcome aboard your Pan American jet clipper. This is episode 63, and we mark the 51st anniversary of Operation Babylift, the urgent and remarkable evacuation of Vietnamese war orphans ordered by President Gerald R. Ford. But this episode isn't just about history, it's about what happened after. It's about a Pan Am flight attendant named Karen Walker Ryan, who served with the airline from 1969 to 1978, and who volunteered to fly into a war zone, not knowing that the children she carried home would stay with her for the rest of her life. It's about Carol Mason, who was five months old when she was airlifted out of Vietnam, who grew up in Delaware County, Pennsylvania, hiding under furniture during thunderstorms, terrified by sounds she couldn't explain, until a doctor suggested she may have heard the bombs as an infant. Who at 25 watched her mother flip through a magazine and freeze at a photograph inside the May 2000 edition of Reader's Digest. A Pan Am flight attendant, Karen, holding a baby on one of those baby lift flights. Her mother looked up and said, Oh my goodness, my baby's in a magazine. It was the first time Carol ever wanted to know her own story. Her mother was gone to cancer just a year later, as if Carol has said she was leaving her a gift. And it's about Dr. Matthew Steiner, born in Laos in 1966, raised in a Saigon orphanage, evacuated at nine years old, and today an emergency physician who has spent his career pulling people back from the edge of life. The boy who once needed saving, now doing the saving. A man who said in words that have stayed with everyone who's heard them, quote, I love my adopted country and I'm proud to be an American, but I will never forget that my American heart is half Vietnamese. Their story was recently featured on a segment of ABC News' 2020 and recently nominated for several Emmy Awards. But their story has been covered by countless other news shows and newspapers over the last two decades. And what grew from all of it, from the fear and the orphanages and the magazine Photo, was something none of them could have predicted. A deep relationship that has endured, deepened, and answered something that needed answering. On April 24th, 2025, the Pan Am Museum hosted a 50th anniversary event in Garden City, New York, in partnership with the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Foundation and the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library and Museum. The room was filled with adoptees, now adults, many with families of their own, some meeting for the first time a person who may have held them as an infant. Representatives from the agencies that made the evacuation possible were there as well. A highlight of the evening was the premiere of a short documentary film called Operation Babylift, a celebration of the human spirit, directed by filmmaker Dirk Braun, featuring both Karen and Carol, as well as other Panam flight attendants in Adoptees. The film has since screened at dozens of festivals across the country and has taken home awards for the story it tells. We've linked it in the episode description. It is only a little over 13 minutes long. Please watch it. Before we get to our interview, I wanted to give a short background of the historic event and then share some clips of the television moments that made Karen's reunion with Babylift kids possible in the early 2000s. Operation Babylift was directed by U.S. President Gerald R. Ford in the final days of South Vietnam, shortly before the country fell in 1975. The operation was a mass evacuation of over 3,000 war orphans from South Vietnam to the United States and other Western countries for adoption in April of 1975. Pan American World Airways sent two Boeing 747 jumbo jets, one chartered by Holt International and the other by American businessman Robert Macaulay to assist in the evacuation. On March 29th, 1975, the central Vietnamese city of Danang fell to North Vietnamese forces, setting off a domino effect that brought into focus that Saigon was now at extreme risk of being overrun and the country was close to defeat. Let's take a listen to a five and a half-minute clip from April 5th, 2000, on ABC's Good Morning America with Charlie Gibson, marking the 30th anniversary of Operation Babylift. This is the moment Karen met Matt for the first time on live national television.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

The fall of Saigon in late April 1975 was a time of crisis and a war about to be lost. Desperate to flee their country, crowds of Vietnamese civilians swarmed the gates of the U.S. Embassy trying to get out from the clutches of the communist victors. Pictures we'll never forget. And in the midst of all that, there was a dramatic rescue effort launched called Operation Baby Lift to fly orphans adopted by Americans to the U.S. In the May issue of Reader's Digest magazine. She recounted her story to our Antonio Mora.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

They came clambering up these stairs, wide steps, you know, ten wide people holding babies four in their arms, climbing them to us. And all we could do is take these babies. You know, put them in a seat. Go get another one.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

Saigon, April 1975. The frantic final days of a capital about to fall to the enemy. America's one last desperate humanitarian act to save the littlest victims of the conflict, the orphans of war, and give them the gift of freedom.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

We got a telegram when we landed in Hong Kong that we were being rerouted the next day into Saigon.

SPEAKER_03 9:00

Karen Ryan never meant to get involved. She was living the jet-setting life of a Pan Am flight attendant when the call for volunteers came. Ryan's Pan Am 747 was thrust into service as part of Operation BabyLift, a mission fraught with peril, which began in tragedy. Almost immediately, something went fatally wrong. One of the first baby lift flights, a military plane packed with the children seen here, crashed the day before Karen flew into Saigon. 125 people died, most of them babies.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

I was scared, but I couldn't imagine saying no.

SPEAKER_03 10:13

What kind of medical problems do you have? Today he is Dr. Matthew Steiner, an emergency room physician in Rock Hill, South Carolina. He never saw his grandmother again, but remembers how she feared he had died on the plane that crashed.

SPEAKER_13 10:27

One of the last images that I have from Vietnam was my grandmother, who was standing at the door with tears in her eyes. Just because she was so happy that her grandfather was alive.

SPEAKER_03 10:50

He flew to the US arriving at Chicago's Our Airport. There were just hundreds and hundreds of people. Some 2,000 other Operation Babylist children escaped the horrors of the Vietnam War. The gift of freedom America gave them has been repaid 2,000 times over.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

They've been an absolute blessing to us. And here we thought we were doing them such a great favor, bringing them over.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

And Karen Walker Ryan is joining us now. Every FAA regulation is ultimately on that later. You were just holding kids on takeoff on the road. Well, something you you're in the midst of it. You're really not thinking about the fact that this is historic. But it really is, and I suspect one of the most important things in your life. Yeah, you have met one of those three, but not the other two. Well, we're gonna take a break, commercial break, and when we come back, we will reintroduce you to all three of them. They are all here with us for studios. As I mentioned, a full telling of this story in the May Readers Digest, but we are now going to reunite Karen Walker Ryan with three of the Vietnamese orphans she helped bring to safety, two of whom she hasn't seen since that day, 25 years ago today. They're all grown up now, and we're glad to be joined by Dr. Matthew Steiner. Good to have you with us. Chris Brownley. How are you, Chris? Very helpful.

SPEAKER_13 12:52

Thanks so much for what you did 25 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Thank you for being such great people. Man, this is gonna be so much fun.

SPEAKER_11 13:10

Karen and Carol would find each other just a few months after that broadcast aired in September of 2000. The thread that connected them, a photograph. Karen holding baby Carol in Reader's Digest, taken aboard the Pan Am jet. That image and the Good Morning America story set everything in motion, and again, Babylift would change all their lives. Karen, along with her fellow flight attendant, Ingrid Templeton, has stayed in touch with several of the children from that flight ever since that Reader's Digest article was published. One of them is Roger Castillo, who also appears in our award-winning short documentary film. Let's hear Karen and Roger's story, an eight-minute CNN segment from April 29th, 2005, with Paula Zan.

SPEAKER_10 14:05

He was an enemy in his own land, an orphan of war with an American father abandoned by his Vietnamese mother.

SPEAKER_04 14:16

The gate's closed and I turn around and essentially my mother's dying.

SPEAKER_07 14:31

That's overwhelming. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_10 14:35

Tonight, a reunion. Two lives touched by war find each other again.

SPEAKER_08 15:41

Today, they live just 25 miles apart. Here in Montana, that's practically next door, thousands of miles away from where they first met. They called them stewardesses back then, and Ryan signed up to see the world. Only America was at war, and she often had the difficult job of shuttling nervous soldiers to Vietnam.

SPEAKER_07 16:15

You just grab their hand and say, take care of yourself.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

It wasn't in big letters, will you volunteer for this? We just thought we were doing it. And then later they told us that it was volunteer basis only.

SPEAKER_08 16:49

That's because this mission was different. Saigon was falling to communism. The plane packed with baby bottles. The plan, pick up not troops, but children. Victims of war, abandoned and possibly marked for death because of their American fathers. Children like this boy, his name then Weng Si Gung. Abandoned at birth, he was adopted by a Vietnamese family until his mixed features started to show. Then at the age of six, his adoptive mother took him on a sightseeing trip that ended at this Saigong orphanage.

SPEAKER_04 17:27

The gate opened, and I remember my mother said, Why don't you go in and see what it's like? And I walked in not knowing because she stood back, and I just walked in, and it seemed almost instant that um I just hear the the gates closed and I turn around and essentially my mother's gone. And um I remember that um I I I really I don't know if maybe I thought she was kidding, maybe I I I didn't know, but I just wanted to get out. I constantly try to climb the gate or I try to climb the fence. I was trying to find any way to get out and find my way home.

SPEAKER_08 18:18

Whether she did it out of love or fear, he believes his adoptive mother saved him from the communists.

SPEAKER_04 18:25

They would have taken away my life. I I think that they would have, because I essentially am half of the quote-unquote enemy to them.

SPEAKER_08 18:36

Fear for these infant enemies sparked a special American evacuation operation baby lift. Some 2,000 orphans with a ticket to freedom, among them Wengsi Kung. Tragically, the first flight out crashed in a rice field, killing some 135 people, mostly babies. But the mission was not abandoned. Karen's plane arrived the day after the crash, and the children came piling up the steps, not knowing it would be a one-way trip, and this would be the last memory of their homeland.

SPEAKER_04 19:10

It was very crowded. There was approximately about a hundred of us from the age of six to eight. And we were all into the back of the plane. The babies were up front. And I remember the stories just running around.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

You know, two or three babies, and I'd get them on a seatbelt and hear come more. Of course, every baby's crying.

SPEAKER_08 19:34

Children are traumatized. And so was Karen. A snapshot captures the moment when this Morsey mission became personal. What goes to your mind when you turn around and you've got three to four babies in your arms? I'm going, this can't be.

SPEAKER_07 19:51

There's so many. These babies. It was overwhelming. Gosh, it was amazing.

SPEAKER_08 19:59

The sick children were taken upstairs to the 747's lounge where on regular flights, wealthy passengers would dine. Crammed in down below was the little boy who wondered if he'd ever have a family on his way to an uncertain future. Everything in his life would soon change and change again, even his name. Did you realize at the time what was happening? Did you realize that you were headed to America and to an American family that you would now call your own?

SPEAKER_04 20:34

I did not know that I was going to a family at all. All I knew was I was going on a plane, I was taking a trip to a new place, and that's going to be my home. But I did not know their names, I did not know how many kids they have. I didn't even know I was going to a specific destination.

SPEAKER_08 20:57

And he wasn't the only one with questions. Karen was concerned too.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

I was really worried about where they were going, what kind of parents they were going to get. Would they be loved? Would they be received? Would they be nourished, nurtured?

SPEAKER_08 21:10

Sometimes it's the present that links to the past. Roger made his home amid the mountains of western Montana.

SPEAKER_04 21:17

Can you go?

SPEAKER_08 21:20

He's a physician's assistant in an emergency room that serves the city of Missoula. Where just up the road, past the fly fishermen in the fields of sheep, lives a link to what was just a fading memory. He found Karen when she wrote about her plane load of babies in Reader's Digest. Thirty years after their chance meeting, they have become like family. They share meals and watch their children grow. Karen even keeps pictures of the babies on her flight displayed as if they were her own. Is inscribed on a pendant she gave him. It's pretty special. And it's something that you guys are gonna carry with you whatever. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 22:08

Whatever. Whatever. Because I look at Karen and I look at all the stewardists that was on that flight. I look at the pilot. And those were my angels. They're the ones that took us up. They're the ones that flew us out. And they're the ones that gave us that new life.

SPEAKER_10 22:36

What a great story about humanity.

SPEAKER_11 22:39

What you just heard weren't news stories. They were the beginning of reunions, of people finding each other across decades, across oceans, across the quiet mystery of where they came from and who they are. Karen, Carol, and Matt have had 50 years to sit with all of it. Today we get to hear what it has meant to them. I'd like to introduce to the Pantium Podcast Karen Walker, Ryan, Matt Steiner, and Carol Mason. Welcome.

SPEAKER_09 23:11

Glad to be here. What a wonderful opportunity.

SPEAKER_14 23:15

So glad to be part of this wonderful podcast.

SPEAKER_11 23:18

So uh for our listeners, I've known this trio for uh a couple years now. We actually started together with the 47th anniversary of Operation Baby Lift, an event we had in Long Island, New York. And uh we just had our 50th anniversary last year in April. So it's very good to see all of you again.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Yes, yes, that was quite the astounding event.

SPEAKER_11 23:46

Let's start with you, Karen. How you joined Pan Am, why you wanted to be an international flight attendant, and then we can talk about baby lift.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Joined in 1969, graduated from college in 65, uh, trained to be an educator, but I got an opportunity to go and work in Europe as a recreation specialist for the U.S. military. I loved it because I was able to see a lot of Europe. I came back after two years, taught high school, but there was still so much of the world to see. And somebody I'd gone to college with told me about this international airline named Pan Am that was hiring. And I wouldn't have been interested if it had been domestic. I didn't want to fly to Detroit and have layovers. But fly to Paris and have layovers and London and Tahiti. Yeah, I was interested. So much to my parents' uh disapproval, they didn't send me to college to be a stewardess, but it was international. I uh applied and uh made it through the um very rigorous uh screening that they did and became a Pan Am stewardess in 1969.

SPEAKER_11 25:00

And what was that experience like?

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Well, my first base was in New York. And so that was a lot of Europe flights. It was fascinating. But I got myself transferred to the West Coast just as soon as I could because I was a California girl and I ended up back in LA. We call it LAX. So I did all those flights to Asia, Hong Kong, Tokyo, all the way to Australia and Bangkok. We went halfway around the world and then turned around and came back. It was very eye-opening, hard work, very hard work, tough on the body with all those time changes, probably. But I was making good money and I was finally seeing the world the way I wanted to. I wanted to spend more time out seeing the world, but you had to work while you did it. And I was able to live in Montana, Missoula, Montana, and commute to LAX because when I was gone, it would be like 12 days. But then I'd be off for about 10 days. So I could have a life in Montana where I backpacked and um skied and um just took advantage of the beauty of Montana, and then I would have this other life of seeing the world.

SPEAKER_11 26:13

And you still live in Montana, correct?

SPEAKER_00 26:15

I do.

SPEAKER_11 26:16

That's great.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

I'm here forever.

SPEAKER_11 26:19

Any particular stories you'd like to share with our listeners about your time up until 1975 with Pan Am?

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Oh, I had some. I was reminiscing with my gals I played bridge with yesterday. Uh, we were flying into Hong Kong and Teddy Yip, I believe was his name, uh, probably the wealthiest man in Asia at that time. I think he owned most of Macau. Anyway, he took a liking to us girls. We were flying from Australia. He thought we were treated him so well in first class. So he sent a hydrofoil for us, which was brand new at the time. I didn't know anything about hydrofoils. And we had a luxury air flying trip over the water to Macau, three of us tourists. He provided us with the most amazing 14-course Chinese meal I've ever had, and gave us a room. Didn't bother us at all. He was just being nice, gave us $100 each to gamble on. And we thought, oh my God, should we even be accepting this? I mean, what does this guy want in return? Well, he didn't want anything in return. He was just thanking us for making his trip from Australia. So we got to experience Chinese gambling, which was very odd and different. So that was wonderful. The uh layovers in Darwin, Australia were very eye-opening, where we'd be out visiting with Aborigines. And I remember being in one Aborigine camp and they had a giant turtle on its back, and it bothered me. That was what they were having for dinner. So they had it on its back so it wouldn't get away. Tahiti saw, you know, UFOs, saw the northern lights, got to sit in the cockpit a lot to look out the windows and visit with them, who were interesting guys that knew so much about the world. Just great experiences. Yeah. Got a lot of them. But none of them were like that day with Operation Babylift. That's all I want to say.

SPEAKER_11 28:20

And we'll get to that day on Operation Babylift, but that was a day that changed all of your lives forever. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Dr. Matt, why don't we start with you? Tell us a little bit about your early childhood in Vietnam.

SPEAKER_14 28:38

Okay. Well, uh, from what I can remember, and I've kind of like these are just things that I've thought someone has told me, but apparently I was actually born in Laos, uh, in Vintian, Laos. And I'm not sure if my dad was a military or business or government official, but supposedly I lived there for a couple years before moving back to Saigon, now Hosumen City, where uh all of my uh mom's relatives lived. So I grew up, I guess, from two years old until eight years old on my birthday, which was when I was taken to the orphanage by my grandmother. But before that, uh my mother passed when I was seven years old. And I'm not sure whether she had a illness that was incapacitating to her, or whether she might even, you know, take too many, too much medicine, uh, intentionally or unintentionally. I'm not sure. But I knew that leading up to that, I knew that my mother wanted me to have the best life possible. And I think she knew that that maybe things were coming to an end for her because I remember that she tried to adopt me this wealthy Vietnamese family, and I was only like five or what maybe six or seven, and they had cars, they had like a like they were very, very, you know, very nice family. They had a from you know what compared to everybody else, they had a lot of money. But I would not have anything to do with them at all. I guess I just cry so much that they just said, we can't handle this child anymore. So I guess by you know grace of God that they just said, we gotta take you back to your mom. So you know, so yeah. I don't know if I told you that before. No, no, yeah. So there is like many instances where you know how you get to a crossroad and something's gonna happen. It could go one way or another. Like I said, I think just you know, by grace of God, my the roads that got me to, you know, where I'm at now, like I said, uh have just been been really blessed. So so anyway, so yeah, so when my mom died when I was seven, my 86-year-old grandmother tried to care for me as much as she could. And we moved from different houses. She was working two or three different jobs. And but I think in her hearts of hearts, she knew that with me being a mixed race, I know she knew that I would not have had any opportunity whatsoever, and that I could be very well, you know, be tortured and and and be persecuted. So, like I said, on my eighth, eighth birthday, I still remember uh her taking me to Holt Alter Orphanage, which was run by uh a United States adoption program out of Oregon. But I remember like uh her getting me my favorite um, I guess, present or food, which was Bam Mi, which is the sandwich that that we had. And I remember getting getting a sandwich uh from her and then going to the orphanage on my eighth birthday. So I was eight years old. Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 31:57

Carol, how about you? What is your early story in Vietnam before baby lift?

SPEAKER_09 32:04

So I grew up in Pennsylvania, and my parents could not have children. So they wanted to adopt. And basically, the way they told me was they adopted me and it was pre-arranged. So they knew they were getting a baby. They did not know they were gonna get a boy or a girl, and they knew that in the next six months from the time they signed the paperwork that they were going to adopt a baby, and they were pretty much going to wait by the phone, so many words or less, to hear from the adoption agency, which was hold as well, to determine when they would be getting a child. So, as they tell me, they received a phone call, I believe, on a Sunday, and they said you will need to go to JFK to pick up your daughter in a few days. So I hope you have everything ready. And by the way, she's five and a half months old, and you need to be at JFK at this time, and she will arrive. Well, it's kind of interesting when you hear that story because as of someone right now, I'm someone who loves to eat. Well, I was the last one off the plane, and they tell me that story all the time because they said, You clearly were so hungry, they we had to wait for you to get off the plane because you were one of the last to get off. So I was a five and a half months old at that time. And of course, I don't remember any of that, but my parents tell me that they walked off, they walked me off the plane and handed me to my mother, and they were very excited that they had a new baby girl. Again, didn't know whether I was gonna be a boy or a girl, just like anyone else, and got a lovely surprise when I got off the plane.

SPEAKER_11 33:57

So, Carol, you were an infant at the time. And Matt, how old were you when baby lift happened?

SPEAKER_14 34:03

Uh, I was actually eight years old in 11 months, just getting ready to turn nine years old. So I do remember a lot of the events and you know, kind of things leading up to it, as an eight or nine-year-old would, I guess. But yeah, so I was pretty much aware. That was, I think I was gonna say too, the the thing that I always felt cared for by my mother, which I think really helped me as an adult and just as a being an adoptive person. I always felt like I was cared for and I always remember, you know, her love and and and all of that. But um, but yeah, but I do remember quite a bit of things that have happened, like while we're at the orphanage, you know, as the war was coming down to a close. You know, we would be up on the top of the roof and we would look out in the horizon. You could see the the shells just flowing up in the horizon and just kind of coming closer and closer and closer. It just looks like a like a noose that's just kind of getting ready to close in on us. So I think we're you know, we were all pretty scared at the time. But uh I was yeah, so we've been uh I've been eight, eight, eight years old, and eleven months was was when uh was when we're when the flight happened. Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 35:13

Excellent. And we'll come back to that. Uh let's go back to Karen. So, Karen, you're flying the world for Pan Am and you get this telegram in April of 1975. Uh, at the time you did not know this would change the rest of your life. Let's talk a little bit about that telegram and what was going through your mind when you got on the plane and headed to Saigon.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Well, the telegram came in Hong Kong the day prior. We were on our way back to LAX after going all the way to Delhi and having stops on the way back. Uh, and this was one of our and these were just regular flights, correct? And uh we get on a little bus at Hong Kong and a Pan Am guy gets off board. He says, telegram from the head office, schedule pattern canceled, depart April 5th for Saigon to pick up orphan charter, 295 infants, 100 children between two and 12 years, 60 escorts, five doctors, 10 nurses. Now, an additional 14 children were also put on later. There's a little asterisk about other children were put on from the crash of the C5A. So we all knew that the war was winding down. We went to our hotel room. There was we went to our hotel in the lobby, the TV was showing the C5A that had crashed. Um, went to my room. Um, what am I getting myself into? But I never thought I'd say no. I never considered that. I just this part of me was, oh, I was on my way home and I gotta go all the way back. But and also it was Saigon. Who wants to fly into Saigon when it's so close to falling? But um went to bed, got up in the morning, got on that sparkling, clean airplane, big 747, opened the galley doors, and we had rows and rows of bottles that we went ahead and uh filled with milk. We had bassinets we had to put together out of cardboard with the Pan Am logo and the blue on the outside, and we put hundreds of those together and put them, slid them under the seats, all of the business class and a lot of the economy section. We were very busy in that flight to Saigon from Ho Chi Minh City now from Hong Kong. And then we got there, we taxied to a far end of the runway, and I'm pretty sure I saw that that we taxied past the smoking reference uh wreckage. We could see it way out in the field.

SPEAKER_11 38:03

Oh, the C5A crash.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Yeah, the C5A. So we're parked at the very, very end of a runway. We're not even near the terminal at all. And here comes these old buses. I think there were three of them. I can't remember that exactly. I didn't leave the airplane, but a couple of stewards did went down and met the buses. I just know the minute we opened the doors of the airplane, whoosh, all this hot, humid air came rushing in. And we had been this nice cool jet. And then here come all these children, uh, babies in arms. Volunteers were bringing these babies up the steps and handing them to us one after another. And our job is to take them, put them in a bassinet under a seat or under a seatbelt and turn around and go back and get another one. And they just kept coming and coming and coming. And I held so many babies and I was just thinking, where are the mothers? Where are the mothers? This is not right. All these babies, and the babies were traumatized. All the babies were crying, they were hot. We got them all in, and then the children between the ages of two and twelve, uh somewhere older, I'm sure, started coming up the stairs. And Matt was one of those kids and they were crying and they were so distraught. And we got them to their seats and they're just pressing their faces against the windows, crying because they know they're leaving, they don't have any idea where they're going, but you know, it was just hysteria. Everyone was very, very upset. The children, the babies. We get them loaded as quickly as we can, and we're not down dowling at all. We've got to get out of there. The captain took that 747 and shot it straight up in the air. I can't believe what those 747s are gonna do. But they dove into the runway the same way when we went in, they dove like they were a fighter jet. And as the cabin cooled, the babies calmed down, they they found their thumbs and they just started to fall asleep from sheer exhaust exhaustion. And once we uh leveled off, we got busy providing for them in that five-hour flight to Guam.

SPEAKER_11 40:26

And Matt, what are your memories of this flight?

SPEAKER_14 40:30

Well, like as Karen was saying, it was a really, really hot day. And I just remembered, well that day, beginning of the day though, it was a very emotional start for me because my grandmother at the time did not know that whether I was on that flight that crashed or not, the C-58 flight. But I still remember her walking through the gates, and I could see her walking through the gates. I could see her eyes just searching the grounds, playgrounds, like, you know, where's where where is he? And you know, and then I remember as just as soon as she saw me, then she just kind of like her eyes just started just having tears in her eyes. That, you know, like, oh my gosh, you know, my grandson is is okay, he's safe. So and then I remember just going to her and then, you know, just remember giving her, you know, probably the biggest hug that I could ever give somebody, and then, you know, being and then being told, you know, yeah, we're getting ready to go, so we're gonna have to we're gonna have to get going. But even at that time, though, I even though I was very sad, I I knew that it was an opportunity for me to have a family and to have uh three older brothers. So I was actually looking forward to, I was probably one of the kids that was smiling as I was getting on the plane, but you know, not really smiling inside, but uh I was looking very excited to have the opportunity to have a new family, a new opportunity to, you know, to make the most out of myself and and just to do whatever I can to, you know, try to please my new family and and try to integrate in as much as I can. But yeah, I remember coming up on the 747, we got out. There was like you could see the stink rising off of the asphort asphalt. And it was just like, wow, this is like a huge plane, and it it's like a football field. And I'm thinking, how in the world is this thing gonna take off? You know, like this thing has got to take off. And I just was like my worst nightmare was I'm not gonna be able to make it to my family because this plane is not gonna get off the ground. And then we didn't know what happened, so we thought it was sabotaged. So, you know, we're all just in fear that something was gonna happen to the plane, you know, on the way up or you know, so that was kind of like my my worst fear was that that we would not be able to take off and be off the ground. Um, but yeah, it was just total chaos. So once you enter the cabin, you know, it was like you could imagine the smells and the sounds and uh uh just it was just um, but it was a very um controlled chaos, if it was any chaos, because like I said, it wasn't for Ryan and Ingrid and all the other stewardess and staff, you know, they got us in our seats right away. I mean, we were like boom, this is where you go. They might I think they might have handed me like a little smaller child to kind of hold her hold her or his hand. And we got to our seats right away. And I don't think we like said, I don't think we remember there wasn't much time. As soon as we got to our seats, the plane was off and on its way. But yeah, I was like I said, that was my worst fear was that something was gonna happen to us before we take off or right when we took off, you know, that we might get hit by, you know, some missiles or something like that. So, but as far as looking forward and having um like a great uh positive outlook, I was just like ready. And I was like, here I am, you know, here I am. I'm ready to join my new family and just do. make the make the most out of it, make make the most out of myself that I could and try to integrate myself with my new family and and all that.

SPEAKER_11 44:07

And did you know which family you were going to at this point or was that still up in the air?

SPEAKER_14 44:12

Yes. Actually, that's a great question. Let's see our flights in in April, actually my family picked me out when uh uh probably in like November or so. So there was like three or four like, you know, there was a few months there. And I so I knew uh we would exchange pictures and everything. And um that's the other thing I forgot to mention is that when I first got there, the orphanist says just don't even think about getting adopted because you know you're older, you know, your chance of getting adopted is just very low. So just you know don't get your hopes up but which is good because like I said, you know um didn't give me some false hope. But uh but my family uh my dad was a was a uh a family practice doctor and he was a medical missionary so he was a mid medical missionary in Vietnam where one of my other brothers were born Thailand another brother was born and uh Africa so they wanted an older child thank goodness so that I already had three older brothers they were like maybe like 14, 16, like you know so they were a lot older so they did not want just a like a toddler or infant. So that was another blessing you know from from my standpoint was that um they wanted older child so that's how they were able to choose me to to be uh to be their son.

SPEAKER_11 45:34

So Karen I'm going to put you on the spot and it's kind of an odd question. But 50 years later think about if you could go back in time and talk to your younger self on that plane and tell her that 30 years from now you're gonna meet some of these babies and kids as adults and you're going to form almost a second family with them. What would you say to your younger self on that plane?

SPEAKER_00 46:11

I would say why do I have to wait 30 years? I was bonding to them right on the airplane. I didn't want to I didn't you know I was probably holding Carol I didn't want to put her down I I didn't want to put any of them down. It did it has defined my life that is for sure and it was such a shock to be found again because I had changed my name back. Well then I was married to Daniel so I was now Karen Walker Ryan and um the fact that Readers Digest could even find me so many years later to ask me about these babies was shocking. And the only reason they were able to there was one person at the newspaper in in Missoula that remembered me. And I thank her every time I see her I give her a big hug and I say thank you to you I have this whole other family that I never would have had.

SPEAKER_11 47:05

So Carol, when I first met you you showed me this reader's digest article and you said that that your parents showed it to you and that's how you discovered Karen correct?

SPEAKER_09 47:18

Yes that's correct so my mom they always got the reader's digest to their house so I believe it came monthly and she had opened it up one day the mail had come she went to get the mail opened up the magazine and says I don't understand look at this and she shows my dad and then she shows me and she says that's you in here but she didn't look at the cover or anything she kind of was just flipping the pages in the magazine before she really read it and said well I don't understand this picture looks like you this and she said I don't understand why you're in here. So she proceeded to read the article and she showed it to me and then I read the article and I said well I'm gonna have to contact this woman and let her know that my mother is asking why I'm in this picture. So I had reached out to Readers Digest I wrote a long letter to them saying that I believed that I was the baby in the picture because my mother is a subscriber and got this uh magazine. And they then I I don't remember if they wrote me back or they call I think they wrote me back and they said well we will have Karen contact you because it you know everything was snail mail by then so um it was a and this is like night late 1990s is this is that correct late 1990s early 2000s it was two early 2000s so I don't believe that there was an email on there. I believe I literally wrote a hand letter to them and I I just unfortunately I don't remember how they contacted me. It was either by a snail mail letter or calling me because I had left my contact information and I said I really need to get a hold of this woman can you please provide and they said no we're gonna give you we're gonna pass your information to her and then her contact you and then Karen had contacted me or somehow we had got each other's information but I believe she had contacted me and said I got your information from Rader's digest and we had then talked I'm a little unclear of exactly the details of that but I just know that we talked after that and I know that I was at work actually when I the first time I talked over and I said yes I said that's I wanted to meet you and talk to you and kind of go over the details and ever since then um after that article came out then I went to DC and met Karen at the time and we spent time together in DC and walked to the wall and did a lot of things that week and kind of just caught up and we've been close ever since and I consider Karen my airlift mother and I've stayed in touch over the years. You know, again back then we would write letters I would contact her and of course now it's usually just pick up the phone or text, you know um but she's pretty much my airlift mother and I've considered her family ever since and Carol what was going through your mind when you wrote Reader's Digest um it was actually exciting because I again you never expect to open a a magazine and and and see your baby picture in it and it was really exciting because I yes I've heard of Operation Babylift and I was always told from the time I was a little kid and can talk about being adopted but I never really got the full story if that makes sense. I I got yes you're adopted your parents left you in Vietnam your mom left the hospital they couldn't contact her but you didn't really know other than you were born in the war of really the details and then after speaking to Karen and meeting her and hearing from her you got to see it from her side and what they went through all the stewardess of the doctors and all the people involved what they went through and how they went and uh brought us over on the flight. Those are the details that you just don't know about and me just on the other side I didn't know either I was like I said I knew from the time I could talk that I was adopted. So I just knew that I was I came over on Operation Babylift at five at five and a half months old and I was adopted through Holt and that's all I knew until 2000 when the story came out that Karen wrote then I think it kind of brought light to the part of history that really needed to be told. And then of course I did a lot of research to find out more but I just always kept in touch with her.

SPEAKER_11 52:12

And Karen let's go back to that time where Reader's Digest reached out to you and said the little baby that's on the cover of the magazine reached out to us and wants to meet you. What were you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 52:28

Take us back to that time oh that was wonderful that was so exciting. They flew me to Washington DC and I walked into the um the Willard Hotel I hope I have that right Cara would have to tell me and I had to walk down this long um hallway and here was this very sophisticated beautiful young woman at the end just so worldly and that was Cara she's got a masters and spanny you know she's uh she's done so many fabulous things in her life and um that was my Operation Babylon Kid one of them and we just gave a big hug to each other and it was very emotional for both of us to meet. She was as American as you and I as is Carol and Matt you know it's just it's enriched us so greatly so I've been very close to her family ever since as well.

SPEAKER_09 53:28

I've been to Carol's wedding uh I've met Carol I haven't met her daughter yet no you you met my son met your son I haven't met my May yet yes you met my son met Matt's wife and Matt's children when they were little and they keep threatening to come out to Montana and I wish they would but no this is you're on notice Matt you're on notice.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

Hey you're running out of time here this is all family I never would have had and um I just feel greatly enriched by knowing them because who wants to hang out with an old woman you know I mean I have this special bond with them because I know what they went through. I was there my eyes saw it I was part of it. I know how gut-wretching all of this was for them and I also know how grateful they are but also how disconcerting it must have been for them these little children caught up in this horrors of war. And it was just the most beautiful humanitarian thing that has gone on in our country in many years. And I'm proud that was part of it and that I was able to do my small part in it because it's hard to find that kind of humanitarian goodness in this day and age. And it's just been a blessing for all of us. We are so much so much enriched by what these kids have grown into they're responsible adults. Carol's got amazing children Matt's doing uh wonderful things with his life they all are they all are that's great.

SPEAKER_11 55:12

Now in the 30 year period between Operation Babylift 1975 and 2000 when you started reuniting with the babies that were now adults tell us a little bit about that period. Did you did you think about the babies did you ever think in your wildest imagination that you would be reunited with them and you would have this second family together?

SPEAKER_00 55:38

Well after that first article in 1976 was published May of 1976 Readers Digest did my first article. I got letters from all over the world and most of them from the United States but from all over the world from families who had adopted some of these children. And I just treasured those letters and they told me I mean one mother told me about any time a helicopter goes over the house that her little boy has to um hide under the dining room table. Somebody else described the horrible uh skin diseases her little baby had when she first got them. I just treasured those letters. Unfortunately when I moved the box of letters got lost and I I lost them because I was I wrote back to a lot of those families and told them how much this moved me uh what they wrote. And I was hoping to kind of be proactive and connect with some of those families but the box disappeared and um my life got real busy. But I thought about them a lot and wondered how they were doing. I never thought I would get a chance to uh meet idiom like I did but I'm so glad we did.

SPEAKER_11 56:57

Matt, let's talk about your adoption story and growing up in the United States. So the plane lands uh which which plane uh were you on San Francisco or Seattle?

SPEAKER_14 57:08

Uh Seattle okay so you yeah you land in Seattle uh you're eight years old take it from there okay yep so I just remember once we got off the ground you know I was just had the anticipation of meeting my family and just joining them and just kind of uh I want to become like an all American boy you know so uh I just remember once we landed in Chicago this was that was where I got I uh departed from the plane that's where my parents picked me up it was just a sea of just uh flashes and the cameras and reporters but I can still remember just looking through the crowd though just like searching for my mother and her picture and I could remember that we both like said locked eyes across this crowded just you know flashing lights and then like when what she told me and I just remember just running as fast as I can just you know jumping in her arms and just saying you know like hey you know I'm um I'm here you know do you actually like it or not? I'm here so I'm here and I'm hungry. So um so yeah so that was my uh initiation and then uh I grew up in a little small town in West Liver Ohio. Uh we I grew up as a Mennonite so kind of Amish Mennonite which you know like I said a lot of people have some different uh thoughts about that but uh we're actually pretty liberal so we're like the crazy Mennonites so we had cars and we had cars electricity and you know all the modern conveniences but uh but my father was a physician uh family practice and like I said he did a lot of missionary work and then he became an ER physician so obviously he had a big impact on me just being service and trying to help other your you know your your fellow human being just trying to do whatever you can to help help out uh in different circumstances so um yeah so I kind of grew up uh in uh I I I think I was pretty welcome I mean most of the people there were very welcoming to me so I really had a positive experience uh growing up in a smaller town which may not be the same for everybody um but I just remember just being involved in sports right away you know just really enjoying that and then you know uh just um the other thing we did was we had a uh my dad accepted assignment in New Mexico where he was a doctor at a Navo reservation so that was actually my first yeah so right when I came I I said I want to go to school so bad. I was like I gotta go to school even though I couldn't speak any English I just want to go to school. So they put me in third grade for like a month or a month and a half. So you know it was an interesting experience with that. But I had a group of friends that really protected me and uh you know so but then so the next year I went to New Mexico and lived in we lived a Navajo reservation which was probably the best thing for me because as uh I'm I'm dark complexion so I looked like a Navajo Indian so they all thought I was like Navajo so they could really spend time with me and work with me. So my English skills did improve quite a bit.

SPEAKER_09 1:00:17

So by the time I came back to West Liberty my uh English skills and and so my reading and writing was definitely improved so I was able to be you know caught up with the other kids and then just remember growing up just wanted to do everything and be involved in everything and then uh you know finally deciding to go to college and then it took me a little while before I decided uh pass in medicine but uh I'm so glad that I did and that's kind of uh what you know what what I started uh now my dad did pass before um I actually got into medical school but I think he knew that you know that was one of the things that I was interested in so um so yeah so I think that you know I think I think he was hoping that I did and uh I'm glad I did Carol tell us a little bit about uh your early life so you flew in through Seattle and then JFK and your adoptive parents picks you up at JFK you're an infant tell us a little bit about life in Pennsylvania sure as a small child uh yes I grew up in Delaware County Pennsylvania uh that was a suburb uh my family was very religious so my mom and dad um met through church when they were younger and of course got married um but i i came from a religious family i when i was young um i was an only child so i had always wanted brothers and brothers and sisters and i know my dad talks about that they were thinking of adopting another but they didn't um so for me as a young child i really just wanted to connect with other kids because i had no brothers and sisters so as a young child I would I was involved in every activity I could be in I mean from piano lessons to gymnastics to cheerleading to dance I mean I did everything I could pretty much do just to kind of meet friends. Now early on in elementary school it was a little tough because I was the only Asian in a white and black community. So I didn't have anyone else that looked like me. But that went away pretty quickly once I came out of elementary school as I got into middle school I made really good friends and I made really great connections with people. And actually as of this to this day right now I have a women's group um my girls group that I've had some of the same friends since first grade. So since first grade all the way through middle school and high school I've still had those same friends. When I was small again my parents my mother was an English teacher and my father was a banker and my mother actually decided after a couple years of teaching that she wanted to just be a full-time mom. So she raised me and my dad worked and then eventually she got a job working as the church secretary. And so she did that pretty much through high school for me in middle school and high school like I said it I was in every activity. So between cheer and gymnastics and everything I could get my hands on, I had a pretty good life after after elementary school because I connected with people and at that point I was very outgoing. I lived in a small town we my parents pretty much my mother cooked every night of the week so that was one of the things that she was very good at she made Pennsylvania Dutch cooking kind of like um Matt was talking about Amish Pennsylvania Dutch cooking is is very you know home cooked food with the pies and the cookies and everything sweet under the sun. If you wanted it and came for a holiday you would get every kind of sweet pie, cookie cake, etc. Sign me up I grew up in a very very family oriented family. Like I said it was just my dad and I and my mother uh no brothers and sisters and then I just my family was really just my friend. So it's never changed. I've always been the type of person who looked for connections with other people and pretty much networked. So I went after high school then I went to college and decided that I was going to go into finance. And after going into finance I decided that after college I wanted to move to New York to work off of Wall Street and that's what I did. So I've kind of followed my dad's background of being a banker and going into finance.

SPEAKER_11 1:04:54

Excellent Karen let's go back to Pan Am for a moment Pan Am, Holt, President Ford, a lot of other organizations that were involved with baby lift could you have ever imagined that this ripple effect it's almost like a pebble that you throw into a pond and this ripple effect has changed all of these lives because of that one event that you were part of how does that make you feel looking back over 50 years.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:32

I know it's gonna be the first thing mentioned in my obituary someday. You know um I feel like I've accomplished a lot in my life but really my life is defined by to many people by that that was the singular event that kind of put me on a little bit of a map of making a difference in the world. I mean I I hope I've made a difference in other ways with individuals that I've known through my work. But nothing will compare to that. That was a historic um event that these kids were all part of. I tell them it's like coming on the Oregon Trail, but even bigger. I mean, what a way to what a way to become an American. I love it. I think it's a great story. And it shows us that there is goodness and hope in everyone. And we should never ever turn our back. I mean, it was just an honorable, very honorable thing that we did. And we've been repaid a thousand times over. That should be very clear to everyone that this was a wonderful thing that we did. And we have been repaid so many times over by the accomplishments of these young people.

SPEAKER_11 1:06:51

So you talked a little bit about how you met Carol for the first time and Kara for the first time. Tell us a little bit about when you met Matt for the first time. Oh Matt. I mean, not the first time, but the first time 30 years later.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:09

Oh, well, the first time was on Good Morning. Yeah, no, the first time him coming on the airplane. By the way, Matt, there you know we do have some footage of you getting off the bus, right? You've seen that.

SPEAKER_14 1:07:21

I I think that was as amazing as it is. I think that didn't have a very good uh resemblance, which was like amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:29

I don't know how to definitely think it's you. So not knowing what happened to these kids, and then being notified uh by reader digest that I had an opportunity to try to find some of them. Um and Matt, I can't remember how we found him, but I had written down some of the Vietnamese names that were on the little wristbands. And I think Matt must have been one of them. The editor made it very clear we only want you to find kids that were on your flight to Seattle, because I found other kids that were on the flight that went to San Francisco. No, it's got to be on your flight. Okay. Anyway, somehow we found Matt. That's kind of been lost to history how we did, but we did have a few, I did have a few of those names that I'd written down. I met Matt on the Good Morning America show. Uh, when he walked out of the wings and gave me a big hug. There was Chris Brownlee, there was Matt Steiner, and there was Cara DeLahunt. I was already on stage being interviewed by Charlie Gibson, and then he said, We have we have them here. We're going to meet them. I knew I was going to meet them because they told me I was coming to New York to meet them. I was so moved, uh, so emotional when I got to hug these beautiful young people that had been little babies or little children on that plane. Uh time just really telescoped together. It didn't seem like it had been 30 years. I mean, I can vividly, or 25 years, I can vividly remember everything about that day on the airplane now. And uh, there's not many events in my life that I can remember as vividly as I could remember that day. So yeah, it was extremely moving.

SPEAKER_11 1:09:21

So I'm gonna put Carol and Matt on the spot as well. Thinking about your life and the families that you built, the careers you built, the friendships you've built, what message do you have for Karen? Carol, why don't we start with you? What do you want to tell Karen?

SPEAKER_09 1:09:42

Um, let's see. I so I am a huge Broadway fan, and I'm going to use my reference to the movie Wicked. I am who I am today because I knew you. She is, like I said earlier, my airlift mother. She, a lot of the things that I who I am today is is partly because of knowing her. My relationship with Karen has been wonderful. She's been the second mother that I've had. Um, just to note, when I talked about my mother and the reader's adjustment, my mother had died shortly after I met Karen. So I really think it was my mother's gift to give me Karen as my airlift mother, someone that I consider my family and someone that I consider truly a blessing in my life. And we talk very often now and all the time. And, you know, I I'm just very happy to know her and blessed to have her in my life. And she has been a godsend, like I said. So back to my reference to wicked, I I am who I am today for good because I knew you.

SPEAKER_11 1:11:06

I love it. Matt, your turn.

SPEAKER_14 1:11:10

All right. Oh, that's a tough one to beat. I don't know. No. Karen, I will always love and cherish you for what you did for all of us on that special day. Because just hearing all the things that could have happened, would have happened, and you know, your decision to decide to go on the flight, you know, was a big, big decision because, you know, you not only put yourself at risk, you know, you um wanted to help uh the children so much that you know, you probably thought about it for like a second, but I think the overwhelming thing was I think just for you being able to be there and just be be able to help all the kids and all the children, including my myself. And and uh you know, I I just like I said I just can't say enough to thank you enough to um let you know that how much how much I appreciate how much all the other children appreciate you for what you did and what you put yourself on the line for because um that is like that is just a you know such a uh you showed your love for all of us by doing that. So, you know, like said, I will always, always appreciate you for what you did.

SPEAKER_12 1:12:34

And Karen, what do you think of what they said?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:39

I have such a vested interest in everything that happens to them in their lives. I we're Facebook friends. I just get I feel so proud when I see that Matt is um, you know, he's a great golfer and he volunteers, so he gets to be at the pro tournaments, and I know what hole he's gonna be on. I'll watch that golf tournament just to see if I can see Matt. Um I know he he's a fan of the Pacers. I I love how well his son is doing. I like to hear about his daughter and how she's moving through her life. I love to hear about Carol's kids and what they're accomplishing. And she posts pictures of uh the soccer. They are her daughter's a very fine athlete. Her son's a brilliant young entrepreneur. I just feel like I am blessed that I can take these victory laps with these kids when whenever anything good happens to them, they better let me know because I'm their number one cheerleader.

SPEAKER_11 1:13:49

That's great. I I remember when I first started talking to Carol, it was late 2021, early 2022, and we were starting to organize for the 47th anniversary at the Pan Am Museum. I remember that event very well. Uh, it was extremely moving for me personally. Uh, it was very difficult to uh not cry because it, I mean, the emotion in the room, the energy in the room, but I distinctly remember Ingrid, one of the other flight attendants on that flight, and Carol and Karen going up to the Pan Am Museum on the third floor, mezzanine, and for Carol learning about Pan Am history. And my question to all three of you I mean, Pan Am played a small part in this historical event, a small but a very important part. But why is Pan Am history important? We have a lot of young listeners that listen to this program and learn about this airline that's been out of business unfortunately for more than 34 years. Why is this story, Operation Baby Lift, and why is the overall Pan Am history important to future generations? Karen, why don't we start with you?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:12

I feel that it's a beautiful example of how a private enterprise in a capitalistic society that was designed to take care of uh the wealthiest among us could have this wonderful humanitarian side where suddenly they shifted gears and all of us stewardses who were used to serving caviar and fine champagne and the very best service that that anyone could get was given by Pan Am, that we could make this shift to this humanitarian day of saving these tiny little souls and bringing them to our shores. That there was no greed involved in this. This was pure humanitarian love of your fellow man, and I would like to see more of that in this world. And I am so proud of Pan Am that they did that.

SPEAKER_11 1:16:18

Matt, would you like to go next?

SPEAKER_14 1:16:20

Sure. Um, yeah, no, I mean Karen really hit that on the spot because, you know, when you think of um our culture, our society being a capitalistic society, you know, everything is about how much money, how much profit we can take. And you don't see an example of uh, you know, a national, international company like Pan Am was at the time to just step up and just, you know, let everyone know how precious people's lives are. And that these are people that you know that that could contribute to um our country and to the world. And I think uh, you know, Pam, I think realized that you know, this is an opportunity where we give these children a chance to have a second family and to have opportunities that they would not have otherwise. Uh, I know that I wouldn't for sure. So just to be able to have such a humanistic um view on on what was happening at the time and for for Pan Am to step up and just to say this is what we're gonna do to help out these, you know, these un unfortunate child children at the time. But um, you know, it was just really amazing to think that, you know, corporate America or you know, would would be able to do something like that and what we think of our sense of uh what that is now.

SPEAKER_11 1:18:02

Carol, your thoughts.

SPEAKER_09 1:18:04

I think that this is just a wonderful, beautiful mission that really tells a great story. I mean, if you think about Karen and and all the people, the other stews that were involved, and all the people that came together on a single few days to bring these children and infants and everyone out for a better life. This is really just an awesome, heartfelt story when really what everyone was doing on that day was doing their job. They were going to work. They didn't expect to carry out such a beautiful mission. And I think that's the best part of it is people doing their normal job, just like you and I would do, whatever that may be. And it turned into a beautiful mission that they ended up helping a bunch of people that now can tell their story, tell about the history, and for the younger generation to learn that again, just people doing their job made such a beautiful mission and a an airline that wanted to help out and to give everyone a better life.

SPEAKER_11 1:19:23

Any closing thoughts that you have that you want to share with our listeners?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:29

I want people to keep their hearts open to all children everywhere that have an opportunity to live the American dream. We've got plenty of room.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:48

Carol?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:49

That's a tough one.

SPEAKER_09 1:19:50

Uh last closing thoughts. I would just love for everyone to get along, just really make this world a better place and to help your fellow friends and people you meet on the street, and everyone that you see. Everyone has a different story, and you don't know what anyone's going through until you talk to them. So just be open-minded and make this world a great place to live.

SPEAKER_14 1:20:19

And Matt, there's just so much stuff going on with our country and society and everything right now. It just seems like everybody's just taking sides. And, you know, I guess I would just like for us to just, you know, I don't know if you could put aside the differences and just try to do what you can to help others the you know, the best way that you can. And I know there's, you know, there's a lot of people we can help here in the United States and in the country, uh, other country. And I guess again, I'm kind of kind of with Karen on like, you know, people just having uh open mind on who can come into the country, who can't come into the country. And I know it's a very tough situation, but you know, if it wasn't for me being able to be here and uh and other children on that flight, you know, we would have not had any lives or any opportunities to to be able to contribute to this great country of ours. And I still think that the United States is you know that one of the best countries to be in. So um, yeah, so I just like I said, just want people to just kind of keep an open mind and just try to do what they can to help uh other less unfortunate people and children. Very good point.

SPEAKER_11 1:21:39

Karen, I'm gonna put you on the spot again. So you are joining Pan Am. You go back into a time machine and talk to your younger self, and you're gonna tell her all the stuff that's gonna happen because of that decision to join Pan Am. What would you tell her?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:01

I would tell her, go girl, you go see that world while you're young, you do all the travel that Pan Am will allow you to do. You climb every mountain you can. Um, you climb every steep street you can in exotic locations all around the world. And if anything comes up that will make the world better because you were involved, you get involved. And I am so glad that I had that day of Operation Baby Lift because it led to an entire lifetime of these children who I know care about me because I care about them, because we've formed a bond, and that's what family is. We have formed a bond with this mutual um day of anguish that we all went through. And I am just so grateful. I would tell this young Karen don't walk away from all of that. You need to embrace the world. I know so much more about the world than I ever would have if I hadn't joined Pan Am. And so I think I have a comprehension of other cultures that I never would have had otherwise. And I it makes me a person more at peace with myself to understand cultures and that we're all just human beings underneath trying to do the best we can.

SPEAKER_11 1:23:32

We made a film about Operation Baby Lift that we showed at the 50th anniversary celebration featuring many of you and also President Ford's son, Steve Ford, and this film has kind of taken a life of its own. It's been in film festivals, it's on YouTube, and in that film, Karen, you read a poem. Can you tell us a little bit about this poem and can you read it for our listeners?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:05

This is the poem that Carol Mason wrote and framed it beautifully and sent it to me. It's entitled A Caring Heart. A New Friend, a New Face, someone who knew all the events that took place on April 5th in 75. All of us orphans, lucky to be alive. A Pan Am steward as you were, not expecting to go to Vietnam, not knowing what to expect, hoping you wouldn't see any bombs. Four hundred and nine of us were carried onto your plane. After this day, your life would never be the same. Changing diapers and feeding us all, holding us in your arms, many of us very small. It was hot and humid the day we arrived. We were handed to loving parents. Yes, we survived. No one knew how our lives would be through the years, but you wanted to know all about all of us, how dear. Our mothers and fathers abandoned us at birth, but they couldn't guess what our memories would be worth. Learning to walk and the first smile on our face, trying new foods and learning new taste. Many memories we had, I'm sure we all could share, but one memory we all knew, our birth mother wasn't there. Many of us searching to find the family we never knew, but one thing we had was a great friendship from you. It was 25 years ago, and I thank you so much for sharing your story and adding a personal touch. You have a heart of gold that kept the memories of 75 alive. I am grateful that you cared so much. It helped us all survive. With Love Always, written by Carol Mason, September 1, 2000.

SPEAKER_11 1:26:04

Matt, what do you think about those words?

SPEAKER_14 1:26:09

I think they're just very awesome and inspiring, you know. I mean, she really captured the moment and kind of what Karen has meant to us as far as what she did and Pan Am, obviously, with a big part in that as well. But no, I think uh I don't know. I think because that I'm not sure if I've heard that before, but it's pretty amazing. So I'm so glad that well, there you go. Yeah, so it's beautiful. I really like it.

SPEAKER_11 1:26:39

And Carol, you wrote this. What was going through your mind when you wrote this for Karen?

SPEAKER_09 1:26:46

I wrote this because I've always loved to write. And Karen was just my the impact that she had on me after speaking with me. I just she inspired me to write. And this was what came out. That's the best I can say. It's just this is what came out. This was truly just the impact that her being in my life had on me and what she did for all of us. And I wanted to capture it in a poem. Um, and honestly, other than sharing with sharing it with her and sharing it maybe one or two other places, it's really not out there. So um it's it's nice to hear that again. I probably haven't heard that poem in 25 years. Um, because I I usually just write something and I don't reread it, you know, again years later, but I guess I should. Um truly just the impact that she's had on my life and what she's had, I'm sure, on everyone's life for all the lives that she's touched.

SPEAKER_11 1:27:53

And Karen, as we are coming to the end of our interview, what would you like to tell all? Of your Pan Am colleagues around the world and also all of the baby lift kids who are now adults and have families of their own.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:10

Well, I'd like to tell my Operation Baby Lift Kids that uh war as hell. I think they're all mature now and they know war as hell. I don't think they were willingly abandoned by moms or dads. I think uh it was such pure chaos. I'd like to tell my Pan Am friends how what a rare, wonderful experience we got to have to fly for this airline. I don't know if there'll ever be another airline like it. I think we all realize that that was a pretty special, special time for us to be able to experience all that Pan Am offered us. There was just it was so enriching all the way around. And whenever the Twain show meet, man, I'm so glad that Pan Am has met the Operation Babylon. They they are there's a bond right there with all of the Pan Am people and the Operation Babylon people who are not kids anymore, but I will always call them kids. Just glad to be a real part of it. One of the best things to come out of um reuniting with all the kids in 2000 was I got a call from uh Voice of America, which until just very very very recently was our news station that is throughout the world and it's now been canceled. I hopefully not for long. But Voice of America asked me to say something to the people of Vietnam in Asia in 2000. And I wrote this, this is the original I wrote it on, and I this is what I wrote. It's very short. Can I read it? Sure, of course. I'm very glad the wounds are healing, and Vietnam has opened its borders to visitors and to commerce. It is especially gratifying for the Vietnamese orphans and refugees from the war who can now go home again and try to trace their roots. And many former U.S. military are visiting Vietnam to try and make peace or some sense of what happened there. I hope you never have to go through what the older generations endured. They secured for you a sovereign nation. As tomorrow's leaders, study the good and the bad of governments around the world and incorporate the best into your developing nation. So that was quite an honor to be able to read that. And the other thing I wanted to tell you was I became a scuba diver in my latter years and went to Singapore. Um to we were going to Bangkok to scuba dive and in Singapore, and the first time I'd been in that part of the world since I quit flying for Pan Am in 1978, and I looked up on the board and there were flights into Hanoi and flights into Ho Chi Minh City. I mean, I was I cried. I just oh cried because none of that was possible when I was flying.

SPEAKER_11 1:31:25

Yeah, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:27

So we've we've made some progress.

SPEAKER_11 1:31:29

Yeah, good point. Well, Matt and Carol and Karen, it has been an honor talking to you. And uh I can't I can't tell you how proud I am to be involved with the two events in 2022 and 2025, um, celebrating your legacies and your stories. And it's an honor to tell your story here and in other podcasts and our film. Uh it's it's definitely been a highlight of my historian career, and uh I thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:03

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_14 1:32:06

For making it possible for us to tell the stories.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:08

Bye, kids. I love you.

SPEAKER_14 1:32:10

We love you too.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:11

Love you too. Yes, we'll be talking. Stay well. Yes, you as well.

SPEAKER_11 1:32:16

Take care, everybody. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Episodes like this are a reminder of why stories matter and why capturing them matters even more. The late historian and author David McCullough said it better than anyone. Quote, history is not about dates and quotes and obscure provisos. History is about life, about change, about consequences, cause and effect. It's about the mystery of human nature, the mystery of time. And it isn't just about politics, the military, and social issues, which is almost always the way it's taught. It's about music, poetry, drama, science, medicine, money, and love. End quote. I believe that with everything I have. If this episode leaves you with one thing beyond the story itself, let it be this. The people in your life are living history. Your parents, your grandparents, the people who raised you, shaped you, and survived things you may never fully know. Pick up your phone, the one already in your pocket, press record, and ask them about their lives. Ask them about love, about heartbreak, about the moments that changed everything, where they were when breaking news happened and history was made. You don't need a studio or a microphone, nor do you need to have experience with interviewing. You just need to record their stories through conversation on your phone right now before it's too late. It's something I wish I had done when I was younger with my maternal grandmother. She fought the Italian fascists during World War II, hid out in caves eating bugs to survive, and was almost captured by the Nazis and later liberated by the Americans. I would do anything to go back in time and record her story. Why am I sharing this with you? Because these stories don't keep forever. But when we capture them, they do. So pull out your phone, hit record, and start recording stories of the important people in your life before it's too late. And with that message and the spirit of this episode deeply rooted in humanities, there is only one way to end an episode like this, the one you just heard. Jared Raeberg was born in Vietnam during the final years of the war. In the spring of 1975 as an infant, he was among the children evacuated to the United States, where he was adopted by an American family and began a new life. Fifty years later, Jared is a husband, a father, and a board member of Heritage Camps for Adoptive Families, a nonprofit that helps adoptees find belonging and build community. He has spent much of his adult life putting the baby lift experience into music, three albums exploring identity, adoption, and what it means to carry two cultures inside one life. Years before the 50th anniversary event at the Pan Am Museum, Jared composed an original song called Waking Up American. He performed it live that evening in Garden City, in the same room where so many of the children from those flights had gathered together for the first time since 1975. The song is about realizing who you are in a country you grew up in, while still feeling connected to a past you didn't fully live. That in-between space, not fully one thing, not fully another, shaped by both. Thank you to Karen Walker Ryan, Carol Mason, and Dr. Matt Steiner for trusting me with your story. And thank you to Jared Raybird for putting it into this beautiful song. And thank all of you for listening.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:36

I see you on my TV. Rushing home from work on crowded streets. You've got bills to pay and mouth to feed. I'm sending you my prayer for another day. I'm living in America with a brand new day. I'm waking America on a brand new day. I'm still the same. And I think of you as I share good night. The answers to my questions wait my night. So what's my name? Well, I think heaven said the moment of peace for God's creation. My country is a sweet land of liberty for the eyes. The eyes the I stay here. And I want to run with goats cross empty fields. Sometimes I wonder what might have been choking on my destiny. Without you. Without me. I'm living in America with a brand new day. Without you. Without me. I'm waking up American on a brand new day. And I'm still the same. I'm still the same. Now I see you on my TV. Rushing home from work on crowded streets.