SPEAKER_02 0:00

You've heard the Pan Am commercials. Millions hear them every day. Now listen to interpretations of the music from these commercials that are making people get up and go.

SPEAKER_08 0:49

This episode is a retrospective of those five years, and I have brought together six very special guests in three segments to help me close this chapter properly. In our first segment, I'm joined by returning guests, Becky Sprecker and Wendy Connect, and I'm pleased to welcome for the first time Ken Yazzi of the SFO Museum at San Francisco International Airport. In our second segment, I welcome back Philip Keene, a dear friend and fellow board member. Philip has one of the largest collections of Pan Am in the world. And for our third segment, I welcome back Jennifer Coots Clay, and I'm very pleased to introduce a guest I have mentioned many times over the years. Maddox Henry has been an avid listener of this program since he was 16 years old, and he now works at the Tulsa International Airport in Oklahoma. Maddox, it is long overdue. But first, I want to share some thoughts. And more than anything else, I want to thank you, our listeners, for your incredible support over the last five years. Throughout this program, I have asked a question many times. I have put it to guests, I have framed entire episodes around it, and it has guided every hour of research, every interview, and every edit I have made since the very first episode. Why is Pan Am history important and why should it be preserved? I have let others answer that question for five years. Now it's my turn. Pan Am history matters because it is not really airline history. It is American history. It is world history. It is the story of how the modern world was connected, of how ordinary people first experienced the extraordinary possibility of crossing an ocean in a single day. Pan Am built the routes, trained the pilots, negotiated the permissions, launched the flying boats, and put the 747 into commercial service. When you fly anywhere today, you are flying in an infrastructure that Pan Am, more than any other airline, helped to build. But the history that matters most cannot be found in any corporate archive. It lives in people, and people do not live forever. The urgency of oral history preservation is not abstract. Every year that passes is a year that a first-person account is lost permanently. This program has been, at its core, an act of preservation, not a museum exhibit, not a textbook, a conversation recorded and made available to anyone, anywhere, who wants to understand what it meant to live and work and fly during the most consequential decades of commercial aviation. I want to share something I have never said on this program before. When I first began developing this work, a humanities scholar told me they did not understand what a bygone defunct airline had to do with history. I have thought about that comment many times over the past five years. I wish I could find that person and thank them. They really have no idea what they started. Because every episode I produced, every guest I recorded, every hour of research I put into this program was, in some way, my answer to that question. Pan Am has everything to do with history. It has everything to do with the human experience of the 20th century, and I have spent five years proving it. Since our first episode, nearly five years ago, I have had the privilege of speaking with former Pan Am pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, executives, historians, authors, filmmakers, and passengers whose lives were shaped by this airline. Together I have explored Pan Am's role in aviation innovation, civil rights, global travel, Cold War diplomacy, the AIDS epidemic of the 1980s, hijacking and aviation disasters, presidential press flights, pop culture, and the deeply human stories that unfolded at 35,000 feet. What began as an oral history project grew into something I could not have predicted: a global conversation about memory, history, and what I chose to carry forward. I want to put something else on the record because this is the finale and it deserves to be said plainly. When I started this program, I had a microphone, a laptop, and zero budget. I was doing this entirely on my own time, 15 to 20 hours, of volunteer work, because I believed the stories were worth telling. Over four consecutive years, this program has been recognized by the Muse Creative Awards and the Bega Digital Awards, achieving platinum in both competitions in 2025. Along the way, I have competed against and beaten organizations with multi-million dollar budgets. I want to be clear about what I think that means because it's really not about me. It means the stories won. Not the production value, not the marketing spend, the stories. Every time this program was recognized, it was because the content earned it. Because when you leave with a story that is generally worth telling, and you get out of its way, it finds the audience it deserves. That is the answer to my own question. Pan Am history is important because the stories are real, the people who carry them are irreplaceable, and every effort to preserve them with honesty and craft and care is worth making. This program has been proof of that for five years. More than 200,000 downloads, over 180 countries, 66 episodes, a perfect five-star rating on Apple podcasts. And not one of them felt like work. Now let us get into our first conversation with Becky Sprecher, Wendy Connect and Ken Yaze. Well, a special welcome back to Wendy Connect and Becky Sprecher. And also welcome Ken Yazzi from the SFO Museum in San Francisco to the program. He's been an avid listener since the beginning. Thank you for joining me on this last episode that I'll be hosting. And also, it's a milestone moment because it's our 66th episode. So, Wendy, why don't we start with you? What do you think? 66 episodes, five years?

SPEAKER_10 7:29

I honestly I can't get over it. I mean, I don't know for you. It's just such a labor of love, but it's been such an amazing boon to our museum to have you invent this podcast. That's now how many millions of um downloads have we had?

SPEAKER_08 7:48

Well, we haven't gotten into the millions yet, but but well to me over 200,000 downloads in 180 countries, over 95 hours of content.

SPEAKER_10 8:00

Totally remarkable. I mean, thank you, Tom. That's given us our museum and Pan Am so much prominence in the world and so much um visibility that I don't think it's even measurable.

SPEAKER_08 8:16

And Ken, why don't you tell us a little bit about the SFO Museum and then you can give her give us your thoughts on the podcast?

SPEAKER_07 8:25

Oh wow. Um well SFO Museum had started 1980, and it was a curator of one of the San Francisco museums who was really um wanting to humanize the airport terminal here at SFO. And it took a while, and finally, there's uh just over the years, it just ballooned into this what we have in the operation of SFO. There are gallery spaces all throughout the terminals, and as you know, of all airports, there's always these constructions going on, these projects. And the airport loves the museum. I work in the permanent collection of the museum where we house all the airline objects. And Pan Am is huge here, and also um we have other airlines represented. We have an exhibition program that has non-aviation exhibitions that you see also in the terminals, and we also have uh aviation library museum. So, right now we have about maybe 153,000 objects in our permanent collection.

SPEAKER_08 9:35

That's fantastic. And the whole airport is your canvas, correct? You you display all of your goodies all over the airport for international travelers to get to appreciate.

SPEAKER_07 9:48

Right. You know, we also work with um San Francisco Art Commission. So you have these sculptures that are hanging from the ceiling, as well as huge artwork and tile work all throughout the walls of the terminals. We operate with no charge. You you come into the terminals and you see all these different things, and there's no one there to give you a ticket or have you an entry fee. It's all free.

SPEAKER_08 10:13

So, to our listeners, if you're ever traveling through SFO and San Francisco, make sure you take a look at all of the wonderful aviation artwork and collectibles that are displayed all around the airport. Becky, so I should have I should know this. We've done at least three episodes together. We may have done even four. I don't I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

But the happy blur.

SPEAKER_08 10:40

But I've I've greatly enjoyed working with you over the years on lots of different projects. The the one one of my favorite ones was the one we did together for the 1939 B-14 press flight, and we used that radio recording, which was really neat. Uh, give us some insight on 66 episodes of the Pan Am podcast. You know, when we first started, we didn't know if anybody would listen, um, except Ken Yazzi. We knew he would listen. Um, but you know, give us your insight.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Well, the first thing that there are two points I want to make. Uh, the first is that the scholars and the historians of the future need multiple sources when they write things. They may read an account in of something, let's say something in World War II in somebody's book, but they need they need second and third sources to back things up. And that's where I think uh the archives in uh Miami come into play, the San Francisco Museum, and you know, everything that that uh Wendy's, you know, the Pan Am Museum is doing now, plus your podcast. It adds to that tremendous body of knowledge and gives us a bridge from the uh past to the future. And I I'm thrilled to have been a part of that. I never imagined myself being a part of it, but uh one trip to the archives, and I was absolutely hooked. Um, the second point that I wanted to make is that this history is really still unfolding because Panna was so much a part of the 20th century and aviation history, and uh it is providing the bridge for today's entrepreneurs as they go up in space and invent the next generation of aircraft. And I just wanted it wouldn't be me if I didn't pull up some a document to read you a paragraph from. And in terms of the um publicity, now I'm gonna link this, this is all gonna make sense. But the publicity, when the China Clipper took off from Honolulu, they'd had a big, you know, big splashy ceremony in San Francisco. But what about when they left Honolulu? They really did a great publicity stunt that I think is one for the ages. And I think one of our entrepreneurs today took a page from that book, even if he didn't know it. It was Thanksgiving. And so they decided to carry Thanksgiving dinner to the uh staff that was on the islands of Midway and Wake. And I have the skipper's notes from uh his personal journal, and Captain Edwin Musick writes that in addition to 16,000 letters, which was the mail contract, right? That was the revenue uh generator, they put on 21 crates of fresh vegetables of all descriptions for our island air bases, nine crates of oranges and lemons, 12 crates of live turkeys for the first Thanksgiving dinner, dinners in the history of those colonies on Midway and Wake, and cartons of cranberries, sweet potatoes, and mince meat. Other crates carry paint brushes, typewriter ribbons, oil lamp wicks, spare sewing machine needles, napkins, baseballs, and tennis rackets, machinery parts, radio parts, and a barber's chair. Our passengers will be new crew replacing the colonists, 25 canaries, four Chinese cooks, and a waiter for Wake Island, all strapped in and terrified by 0630 hour. Now, the link there is fast forward to 2018, and a Falcon heavy space rocket takes off with Elon's Musk SpaceX carrying his Tesla, his red Tesla convertible. It is launched into orbit around the sun playing David Bowie's Starman. So is he the next, is he the one trip of the 21st century? Let's see how it plays out. But it's so much fun to follow all this because once you're once you've been interested in a magnificent journey like the China Clipper, it doesn't stop.

SPEAKER_08 15:13

And to our listeners, one of my biggest regrets for this program was I didn't have Ken Yazee on. So in this final episode, I remedied that, and Ken Yazzy is here. Ken, you know, you have been a supporter of mine since day one in 2021. I remember the first email you sent me, and you said this Pan Am podcast is amazing. Um, tell us a little bit about some of your favorite episodes and some of the things that stood out to you. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_07 15:47

Um I had to learn a lot about Pan Am for one thing. And when I first started, I started in '98 and in the exhibition program here at the museum. And I was transferred over to the Permit Collection in 2005. And with that, I knew nothing about airlines. I knew there was a Pan Am, TWA, United, on and so forth. Just getting involved and doing the work that I do here at the museum in the Permanent Collection. I learned that Pan Am was huge here in the Bay Area. And um, so I just started learning all about you know Pan Am as well as as much as I could with other airlines. Now, today I'm like a little kid in a candy store. If you know, I just I just love anything Pan Am or you know all these airline stuff, you know, and and so to hear this podcast. Oh wow, this is awesome. So I started listening and um heard, you know, the the little jingle and everything. I said, yeah, I I recall that, you know, and so um with that, I was just so like, Tom, who are you? You know, I and that's what I do at work to um do kind of research. If I find something very interesting or, you know, something that I want to get more involved in, I go ahead and just take that risk by, you know, introducing myself and you know, hi, I'm Ken Yazzi, senior museum registrar, SFO Museum, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, and um, so Tom, that's how I connected with you. And ever since then, we just we just became really good friends. And some of the episodes that just stand out right now, you know, like because there's so many that I you know, I like because I had to learn about Pan Am, Don Loper, the designer, as well as Pacone and Edith Head. When you had um the I forget her name. Oh gosh, I'm so bad. Oh, Susan. Susan, yes, had a podcast on her telling her story and just what Edith Head meant for Pan Am. That was really, really insightful, you know, and uh I learned a lot and with that, um, as well as the Nanse um stewardess, you know, um that came on. That I think that's when one of the trips that you you told me about that um you interviewed some some um former Pan Am flight attendants, correct?

SPEAKER_08 18:14

Yeah, yeah. It was yeah, I I was in Japan and I had a delay. And then I I said, Hey, do you happen to be working today? Because I'm here and I'm gonna be here for five hours. You know, let's let's geek out on some Pan Am stuff.

unknown 18:31

So funny.

SPEAKER_07 18:32

Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's it. That's that was a great episode. You know, that you know, that's what we are. We are aviation geeks, you know, and um so so I I really, really enjoy because I know Philip Keene now. He's he's been here and visit, you know, and other, you know, Kelly Kusak's. Um and yes, um, yes. Gotta get Maddox here. Maddox would be awesome.

SPEAKER_08 18:58

Uh and to our listeners, Maddox is in our second segment. So Ken is our special guest for the first half, and the second half, Maddox is our special guest.

SPEAKER_07 19:09

One thing, because I'm I'm native. Navajo. Both my parents were raised on a reservation, and I was brought up non-traditional, but I still respect the Navajo culture and all. And that's one thing I was really in search of with my time here, um, plus everything else that I'm doing, is to see if there are other natives um in the profession in airlines. And so I thought maybe Pan Am would be a good key. And so I'm asking former stewardess, flight attendants, as well as other personnel that you know, hey, are there any native where did you make did you contact any Yazis or any other um, you know, other natives from different tribes throughout the United States? So it's usually no, and that's okay too, but I'm still searching.

SPEAKER_08 19:59

Well, now our audience has heard it, so maybe they will reach out. Oh, cool. You can you can you can find Ken at the SFO museum. So, dearest Wendy, dearest Wendy, when Wendy and I get together, it we always get into trouble. It's good trouble, but we're always into trouble. So, Wendy, what would you like to remember of our five years together, 66 episodes? You've been on two or three episodes as well. I should know this, and I I can't I can't remember. Yeah, two of them, right?

SPEAKER_10 20:37

I think two of them. It was so generous of you. Of course, to me it meant so much that you talked about Flight 73 and the and the effect that that had on everyone, and um how traumatic that event was and about Nearja. And I just gosh, it's hard to pick one that's my favorite, but I love all your interviews, like your interview with Dorothy Kelly, just spotlighting these people that had such an effect, but were in the background, you know, that nobody really knew their stories, and it's really important. And I think that's what's so great. One of one of the great things about the podcast, and I agree with Ken, the interview with Susan Classen, just lately, the aviator and the showman, that that was a great interview. It's hard to pick one that's my favorite. Oh, but also I did love Steve Ford.

SPEAKER_04 21:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 21:36

That was really important as well, because bringing that back into the spotlight of everything that Pan Am did concerning the baby lift and their uh how President Ford was so you know instrumental in that happening. And it's it's kind of endless, but we do have a lot of fun together, and I'm very grateful for the time of how we met. I invited Tom to A World Wings meeting. And he said, Well, I've never been to LA, which I couldn't believe. So we've never met in person. And I invited Tom to stay for a week. And that was, we had a lot of fun. And of course, my husband just loved you. And so we we went all over LA.

SPEAKER_08 22:18

And I got your husband a uh Columbus OS OSU t-shirt that he wears when he runs in. C bus. Has anyone ever stopped him and said, you know, Absolutely.

SPEAKER_10 22:30

Oh, Columbus. Yeah, this the C bus t-shirt. We love exactly. Yeah, it's like a it's like a code, you know. Anyone, well, and I was born in Columbus, so it means a lot to me too. Of course, the Pan Am building is in my kitchen when along with my in my kitchen, I have a little um wooden shelf and it has all these Pan Am planes, the Pan Am building, which Tom gave me a replica of, which is so cool. And I guess, you know, people come in and they just they see my my landing strip with uh with the Pan Am building at the end of it. So it's very cool. And I think of you every single day because of that.

SPEAKER_08 23:10

Well, hopefully in a good way.

SPEAKER_10 23:12

Yes, in a very good way.

SPEAKER_08 23:13

But you know, I'm just sitting here thinking about this. I mean, all three of you. Um, you know, I've only known you guys for five years, and it feels like it's been like 20 uh in a good way. Like I it it's it's amazing how um like for me personally, how I have connected with all of these Pan Am people um and aviation people like you, Ken. And it's like this big family, and it's amazing. It it I'm I'm so grateful for everything over the last five years. Um, but I'm most grateful for meeting people like the three of you and and uh a lot of others um that have treated me like you know, an adopted member of this extended family, even though I've never worked in aviation before. Which is kind of hard to believe. It is, it's really hard to believe. Um, and also it's it's I mean, sometimes I I sit there and I think about the people we've interviewed, like George Chickey, for example, and the story about when I was uh when I was five years old, my dad took me to the Cleveland air show and the Concord was there. And as this five-year-old, how how big of a moment that was to see this weird-looking plane. And then 35 plus years later, I'm talking to the guy that was actually flying it in Cleveland, Mike Bannister, on one of those podcasts. It's just it's crazy, you know. George Takay, you know, I I had to really check myself uh and and be very professional and a historian because my 14-year-old fan was kind of trying to come out with that episode and Sam Donaldson. I mean, I can go on and on. All of the episodes and all of the guests have been exceptional. It it's just it's been a wild ride. It really has, and I'm so proud of it. And I'm floored that people listen to this program and they enjoy it. And I'm floored that like the three of you and and others, you know, love it so much. Becky, what would you like to add? I remember the first time you and I met. So I talked to all of them on the phone extensively before I met them in person, but I remember we were talking about your co-author, Paula, your first book. That was the first, that was the first episode we did together. And her story was fascinating, your story was fascinating, and we hit it off.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Not as not as like hers was. How many people you know grew up in Burma? I mean, it's yeah, yeah. Went to went to school in Darjeeling, India, you know, or took their first Pan Am ride from Rangoon to Calcutta.

SPEAKER_08 25:55

So and one of the things that people are amazed when I say it, when I have authors on the program, I actually read the book. It's very stressful because you're trying to read the book, you know, in time for the interview, but the authors will know if you didn't read their book. So I was always taught a good friend of mine, Ann Fisher. She was uh the NPR host for many years here in Columbus, and she had her own interview program, and she taught me, you know, you always read your guests' books before the interview because they will know if you didn't read it.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

I'm honored. Um, well, I just I the Panama is such a big story, and there's room for all of it. Uh flying, the book that Paula and I wrote was fiction. And but it was a behind the scenes look at the cruise at a very specific time. Wendy's is a memoir. And boy, there's the story is big enough for all of it. And uh it it amazes me today that whenever I travel, there's always going to be an element of Pan Am history there. And um I recently uh, friends, we went to Egypt and yes, we saw the the big stuff, the pyramids and the Valley of the Kings and all that. But because we were Pan Amers, we went up to Alexandria and spent a few days, but we went over to see the El Alamein battlefield and to see the museum, the military museum there, because um right before the crucial first battle where they had to stalemate Rommel and keep him from taking the Suez Canal, they ran out of tank parts and they had to call Pan Am uh in Accra and organize a fuse lift in the middle of the night and flew in 15 tons of these tank parts in time for that battle, and they were able to stalemate Rommel and keep him from advancing. So um we put on our Pan Am t-shirts and had our pictures taken in front of the um of the museum. And there are places like that all over the world.

SPEAKER_08 28:18

Yeah, that's just a great story. I love hearing these stories. When I first joined the Pan Am Museum board, I wanted to do an oral history program. You know, or most oral history programs, Ken, you'll you'll know this, you know, it it's it's hours and hours of interviews. And most people, unless you're a researcher or a historian or doing some kind of research work, they're not gonna sit through it and listen to all of it. Uh, I may have listened to 20 hours of uh Harry Truman's oral history, but it's it's really it's really boring. So I said, well, instead of an oral history program that only researchers are gonna listen to, why don't we make some kind of radio program? And that's kind of how the idea of this program started. Um you know, we can interview some really interesting people, capture their stories, but present it in a way that people would would be kind of entertained and educated at the same time. And that's kind of what we did.

SPEAKER_10 29:18

And um just to say, that's really the best way to learn. Yeah, exactly. Reading it so dry, but when you hear the here you make it, you made it come to life.

SPEAKER_08 29:29

And and also what I like to do is is kind of insert music um every once in a while. For instance, Cheryl Boone Isaacs was talking about how she saw Star Wars for the first time in 1977, and she she was sitting there and all of a sudden Star Wars came on, and I said, Oh, well, I could put a you know 10-second clip of the music and get captures people's attention and get them focused on whatever we're talking about. So then I do that with the news clips too. Ken, anything you'd like to talk about uh in regards to some of the podcast episodes? Some of them I gave you a sneak preview because I wanted to get your your read on it before I published and made adjustments every once in a while. Um, anything that stands out to you that you want to talk about?

SPEAKER_07 30:23

I remember saying that I would, you know, listen to them and would um get back to you, and I never did. And I and again, it's like um things just got so turned.

SPEAKER_08 30:33

No, no, actually, you you did get back to me. We we we uh had phone calls and we talked about it. So you don't even remember you helped me. I don't, guys, I'm so scary.

SPEAKER_07 30:43

So sorry, Tom.

SPEAKER_08 30:44

You know, um I can assure you you helped me.

SPEAKER_07 30:47

So okay, refresh my memory then.

SPEAKER_08 30:50

I'm trying to I forgot which one it was, but so I'm no better in this.

SPEAKER_07 30:57

Oh gosh, sorry. Oh, you can cut this all out.

SPEAKER_08 31:02

We can move on, it's fine.

SPEAKER_07 31:05

Oh, I'll bring something totally totally different. I really do appreciate the um the way Pan Am is still around and is uh an icon of airlines. You know, we are going to be celebrating on the 100th anniversary here at SFO with um an exhibition at the Aviation Library Museum next year.

SPEAKER_08 31:27

So um as we're coming to the end of this segment, what closing thoughts would you like to share with us? Uh Wendy, would you like to go first?

SPEAKER_10 31:37

Well, I'd just like to say that we'd like to continue to honor what you've begun and build on that, that will still support our goal of keeping Pan Am in the zeitgeist. And I think what Becky said before about there's so many incidents in the world and of world history that would not have been the same without Pan Am. And in a way, I'm sorry you're not staying on because that would be a great episode to think of all the all the world events that Pan Am was a part of, which you've obviously highlighted so many of them. But I just wanted to just express my gratitude for your foresight in not only appreciating our Pan Am history and legacy, but knowing that other people would benefit from hearing it. So that was you were really a visionary, and I think we're all very grateful to you, and I want you to know that means a lot. And personally, I'm gonna miss you a lot, but we're still gonna be friends forever. So that's so you're stuck with me. So sorry about that.

SPEAKER_08 32:43

It is a very bittersweet moment. Um I I appreciate your your comments. Um Becky.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Well, I just want to offer my hearty congratulations to you, Tom, for doing this amazing thing here. You brought this into being and you polished and refined it and grew it into something absolutely wonderful that's gonna be so value-added for the uh Pan Am story. And you know, one of the things that I I think it one of my, I wouldn't call it my favorite episode, but one of the most moving episodes that we did was when we we could tell behind the scenes stories that maybe nobody else was writing about. And this was the episode we did with Lit Linda Reynolds and David Henson. Um when gay men were first coming out of the closet in the 70s and how Pan Am provided, when they hired on as stewards, Pan Am provided a tolerant workplace. And we all became like family. And then when the AIDS crisis happened and a lot of them got sick and died, we mourned for these people. It was just a very, very difficult, um, a very difficult period of time. And uh many people don't think of that going on when they think about air crews and uh they think about the uniforms and the serving champagne and these all of this glamorous food and and all of that, but they also probably didn't understand how Pan Am was a force for social change, not only for the rights of women, for flight attendants, uh, and had to have better working conditions, women and men, but for the but for people who weren't exactly fitting in the standard mold uh in the social sense. So I'm very proud of the way you conducted that episode. And I think um that that that's a very positive contribution to the body of work that we have here.

SPEAKER_08 34:59

Well, thank you for that. And that was a very difficult episode to uh put together. Um and and we did something different with that episode, Becky, because we approached it from the employer standpoint. Most of the stories of the AIDS uh epidemic was uh told from either the family standpoint or the friend standpoint. And we decided to, you know, kind of look at it from the coworker standpoint. So that was kind of an interesting take that we did. But that that's certainly I'm very proud of that episode, but it was it was very emotional to put together. Um so, Ken, I am going to post the article you sent to me uh in the episode description for our listeners to read. Uh, and also I encourage our listeners to visit the SFO Museum at San Francisco International Airport. Any closing thoughts from you, Ken?

SPEAKER_07 35:59

You know, I'm just I'm just amazed that um it's a closure and it's sad, although we um have we have our stories, and this is what is what's really cool about what's going on right now is that we're telling our stories, you know, and wish there was like a campfire in front of us kind of thing, and and sharing a drink, um, you know, saying cheers and um remember when kind of thing. So I love that. I love that part, and um, I love the it's family, basically. How I'm the newcomer in this group, but um, it's like I feel, you know, the embrace by other um airline employees, former employees, and all. And just and I love your stories and I wish they would continue. And I read I did see a message that I I texted you a while back. Um I said, um this is um I said uh Tom, have you ever thought about writing a musical on Pan Am? And you said, that's a great idea. I have not. And you know, I'll I'll be there. I'll I'll be there um on Broadway.

SPEAKER_08 37:12

You know, it could be it could be in your hometown. That's good. I completely forgot about that, but hey, you know, maybe we could do that. Why not? I mean, if Titanic can be a musical and that has, you know, not so happy. Oh god, you know, it's not very good. Um well, I just want to, again, you know, I I think the world of the three of you, and thank you for your five years of support of me on this program, and I couldn't have done it without you. And uh, I just want to thank you very much for coming on my last episode. Um, and I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_10 37:52

Thank you. Thank you for having us. Oh my gosh. We're I'm for one, very, very honored also.

SPEAKER_08 37:58

Yes. Yes. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much. All right.

SPEAKER_10 38:03

Take care. Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_08 39:03

And I'd like to welcome back to the program Philip Keene. Philip has been a frequent guest of this program and a dear friend. And I serve with Philip on the Pan Am Museum Board. Welcome back, Philip.

SPEAKER_06 39:16

Thanks, Tom. It's good to hear from you again. It's been a little while since we've been able to connect.

SPEAKER_08 39:20

Very true. You know, life kind of you know goes at full speed ahead, but I'm glad everything's going well with you. So, five years we've been working together on various projects, and uh, this is my last podcast, and uh I wanted to invite you on to chat a little bit about everything we have accomplished in the last five years.

SPEAKER_06 39:43

Well, I think you've got a lot of uh people interested in in Pan Am. And um, I mean the numbers, the numbers don't lie. I don't I don't know what the the last tally is, but because of your work and your podcasts, I mean the visibility of the museum and its history is has really really grown quite a bit. And uh it's been fun working with you these last five years. I remember the trip we made out here to Palm Springs to that um pilots association where we were trying to spread the words was kind of fun, and you saw the mess of my collection all over the floor, uh you know, glasses out, dishes everywhere, stationery all over the floor. And you didn't think I was that crazy, so thank you for that.

SPEAKER_08 40:28

Uh no, I did not think you were crazy. And we found something in that collection that I never saw before, and that was that record. And, you know, for our listeners, I'm gonna try to describe it to you. It was this envelope, and it had a stamp on it, uh, and an addressee from Pan Am. And you open it up, and there's this flimsy plastic record. And we went ahead and and played it, and I recorded it, which I've been trying to figure out a way to share it with our listeners, and I think this is a good time as any. But before I share it, uh we're gonna talk a little bit about Philip's collection, and then I have one final history lesson about this record because it took place in a pivotal moment in the 1970s that I wanted to share with you. So, Philip, why don't we first talk about your collection and your insights into this record?

SPEAKER_06 41:26

Well, you know, I've been collecting for a little while, uh, probably since uh, well, sometime in December of 1991. Um, it wasn't anything I had intended to do. But since Pan Am went out of business on December 4th uh of 91, I still had all of my uniforms and papers and everything that I needed to, you know, to work on the plane. And so that became sort of an instant collection. And then from there I just started buying matchbooks and posters, and it's evolved into this crazy thing where I've got two storage units full of things. Um probably over about 6,000 pieces, if you can believe it, uh, comprising things from a hat badge from the earliest days of Panama, 1927, a uh captain's hat badge, um, a commemorative brass gold-plated ticket uh for a transatlantic flight. Uh it took place in 1939. Um let me see what else is in there. Um fishes, uh curtains, uh seats from first class. I mean, you name it, I probably have it. It's not one or two copies of them. So um, but I used to have it in the house, I think, as I as I showed you when you came to visit. And it just got to be too much. It was like living with all of these these things. And um I did do an exhibit during Modernism Week in Palm Springs, and that was really well attended. Um, so I'm thinking maybe doing something like that again. I mean, some of my things are on display at the Panama Museum on Long Island, and that's kind of nice to see them out there, and people are taking a look at them. So I'm hoping to find a place uh that's big enough where I can do maybe a rotating um exhibition. You know. So I know our space at the museum in New York is is limited at the moment, but hopefully we'll be able to expand and there'll be room for more of my stuff out there.

SPEAKER_08 43:26

And I, you know, before this interview, you told me that this flimsy record broke your record player, and I did not know that. After all these years, I did not know that.

SPEAKER_06 43:35

Well, I think what happened is that uh because the record was so thin, I mean, I don't know anything really about electronics, but I think it may have dulled the needle to the point where it just stopped working altogether. And I think that um it just it just stopped. I don't I don't know what happened, but it wasn't a very expensive record player anyway. Um kind of second hand at this shop, and uh it just it just fell apart. But the the album, believe it or not, it's over 50 years old. And it still plays.

SPEAKER_08 44:01

Yeah, it still plays. And I recorded it. So we have, and we're going to play it for our listeners. So I want to give you a quick uh background of what was going on in the mid-1970s. Uh Pan Am was in serious financial trouble, no surprise there. Everything that was going on in the 1970s, you had the dawn of global terrorism and the oil crisis and everything else. And the airline had lost hundreds of millions of dollars since the late 1960s. Fuel costs were crushing its operations, and Congress held much of its fate in its hands. So somewhere in that crisis, something remarkable happened. A group of Pan Am employees quietly organized a committee called AWARE, and they did something that at the time almost no corporation had done before. They encouraged their fellow employees to walk into congressional and senate offices, not as lobbyists, not as paid representatives of the company, but as constituents, as Americans whose livelihoods depended on elected officials understanding what Pan Am meant to the country. The company knew about it, uh they allowed it, but the employees spoke for themselves. So this is during the Gerald Ford administration, 1974 to 1976. And those employees showed up on Capitol Hill, and by most accounts, the elected officials they visited had no framework for what they were looking at, and they never really experienced all these flight attendants and pilots coming to visit them. This was before PACs, before the modern lobbying apparatus, before corporations had figured out a way to turn their own workforce into a political force. What Pan Am people built with AWARE was in many ways a preview of something that would reshape American politics for decades to come. Before we hear the recording, I wanted to, you know, get your thoughts, Philip, and then we can play the recording. The recording is three minutes long. It starts with the song This Is Our World, Pan Am's World from 1975, and that's about a minute. And then we have a special message from somebody in the past.

SPEAKER_06 46:21

Wow. Okay. Well, that's a lot of new information that I didn't have, Tom. That's really cool. And I know you're an historian, so it's no uh it's no surprise that you found all that. Um so it's kind of cool to to to discover that the dependent employees did this and and changed how um Congress or or the Senate is is is lobbied and how that information is is getting across. I I didn't wasn't aware of that. That's really it's really nice to find out. Um I was not flying in the 1970s, not as um not working anyway. Um but uh yeah, there were a lot of things going on. I mean, the fuel crisis that you mentioned, uh global terrorism, and Panam had ordered, I think, I know more than 25 or maybe 3747s in the late in the late 60s, and I think that kind of put a a crunch in their in their wallet. And then uh you know, travel started decreasing and and fuel prices went up. So there they were with half-empty airplanes flying around the world burning jet fuel.

SPEAKER_08 47:20

All right, so I'm gonna go ahead and play this, then we can chat about it, and then let me hit play here.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

We hope the song you have just heard and which you have been hearing on the radio, expresses the new life and spirit of our great airline. We'd like our spirit to be catching. Catching to you and your customers. For months we have been knocking ourselves out to save our airline so we can continue to serve the flying public the way we have been these past 47 years. We Pan Am employees 32,500 of us have been putting in our own time and money to bring Pan Am's strong case before the government and the public. We're not out looking for other jobs because we believe in our airline and we believe it has a very important place in the world. We are happy to say we have been heard. Things are looking up. The government is beginning to act, the banks have given us new credit, and it looks like we are going to be able to compete favorably with foreign government-owned or government subsidized airlines. Now we want the chance to do the job we are being paid for, to serve your clients in the best way we know how. All of us in Pan Am can't wait to show your passengers what we are made of and to prove that you made the right choice when you put them in our seats. We know how the travel agents of America have responded to Pan Am when we needed them. We want to thank you for that support on this record since most of us never have the chance to be in contact with you directly. All we ask is that you keep sending us your clients, and we promise you that we'll knock ourselves out for them and for you. When we say welcome to our world, we really mean it. And we think it will mean a lot to our passengers. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 50:43

Oh wow, it's pretty incredible that that uh that the group got together and did that. Actually, you know what, it's not surprising considering who Pan Am hired. And um You know, there's there's there's a saying going that goes around to all of us who work for Pan Am is like, um, you know, I worked for Pan Am, I can do anything. And I think given the situation, um they they were able to really pull together, you know. And uh I don't know of any other company that would have done something like that, a couple employees. And still today we're you know, we get together every year and have these uh gatherings different parts around the world, and I don't know of any other company who has been out of business for as long as this company has, where its employees still gather together. And I think that says something about the people uh who worked for them. And um just proud to be part of that group and to have you part of it as well.

SPEAKER_08 51:39

Well, thank you. So looking back at the last five years, so we've done several episodes. We did one on Hollywood where we talked about uh your show, The Closer in Major Crimes. Uh we did one about uh the art of travel posters, that was fun. And uh we did uh the AIDS crisis, uh the epidemic of the 1980s. Um that was very emotional.

SPEAKER_06 52:06

I was just thinking back to when I got to interview you, and I thought that was that was kind of a fun thing, a little turnabout. I really liked that one. And did I think that my favorite episode out of all of them is one with Dorothy Kelly, when she was talking about the Tenerife disaster. And you know, I've I flew with her out of London uh a few times. She and I were both based there. Um and I had heard about her before, but I didn't really know the full story until years later when this podcast came out. So I was really thankful to be able to listen to that. And thanks, thanks to you for for getting that out there.

SPEAKER_08 52:43

Yeah, uh, that's that's one of my favorites as well. And and that's an award-winning one. We we we've gotten awards for the program as a whole, but that one in particular we got an award for. And it took a long time to convince Dorothy to actually do it. Initially, she was very reluctant to do it. So it took you know many conversations and many uh many phone calls to to have her comfortable enough to do it. And I'm I'm so glad she did because uh now the whole world can can know a firsthand account of this terrible disaster, but also appreciate her for her heroism. And um, I mean, she saved single-handedly saved a whole bunch of people, and uh, she's a hero in my book.

SPEAKER_06 53:28

Yeah. I mean, there's so many of those stories out there. I just wish that we were able to capture more of them, you know. Yeah, very true. It's just incredible what a lot of these people did. And uh I know Wendy has an interesting story too about a class that she had trained, and not long after they graduated, they themselves were the victim of uh a terrorist attack. So you know, all these all these amazing, amazing things that happened and and how people stepped up and in my opinion did the right thing. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_08 54:01

Anything else that kind of uh, you know, looking back, anything that uh you want to chat about?

SPEAKER_06 54:07

It's just I I'm happy that that you know, ten years in that this is still a going concern because we were just a a very small group in the beginning. Uh we all put in a little bit of money just to kind of get this started. We wasn't sure it was gonna last or how far it would go. And you know, here we are ten years later, and it's still going strong.

SPEAKER_08 54:26

Yeah, definitely. Well, Philip, uh can't wait to see you again soon. And uh I want to thank you for your years of support of my program uh with this podcast and uh and all the stuff that you've done for the museum. Uh you you really are the heart and soul of that museum uh with your collection, but also with you as a person uh and your generosity and your you're you're just a lovely person, and and I just want to thank you.

SPEAKER_06 54:53

Well, thank you, and I'm I'm glad that we've that we met and that we were friends.

SPEAKER_08 54:57

Definitely.

SPEAKER_06 54:57

Okay, Tom. Good to talk to you.

SPEAKER_08 54:59

All right, until next time.

SPEAKER_06 55:00

Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_08 56:01

And now on to my final interview, and I couldn't think of two better people to share it with. Jennifer Coots Clay, uh, welcome back to the Pan Am podcast.

SPEAKER_11 56:13

Thank you. Um, it's wonderful.

SPEAKER_08 56:15

And Maddox Henry, finally, we have you on the program. Sorry, it's the last one that I'm involved with, but uh welcome to the program, Maddox.

SPEAKER_09 56:26

It's a pleasure to be here, Tom. Thank you.

SPEAKER_08 56:28

So, you know, for once, since in the last five years, I'm not sure exactly what to say. So why don't we start with you, Maddox? Tell us why you love Pan Am history and what the podcast means to you.

SPEAKER_09 56:42

Well, I I first want to start out with how I kind of got into aviation. I was maybe around four years old, and my family had recently taken a trip to Walt Disney World. And um I remember it was like around October. I remember I'm at MCO, the Orlando International Airport, and I look up into the sky and a pitch black sky, and I see a plane flying over, and I just fell in love with it. And by the next year, I was having a Southwest Airlines birthday party, and I just became obsessed with commercial aviation. I think maybe around 13 or maybe 14, I was at the time when I kind of discovered what Pan Am was, but I didn't really had any interest in it at first. And then I had watched the documentary Come Fly with Me, and it opened my eyes, and I'm like, wow, like all the things in flying that I took for granted, this airline invented, and then I started listening to the podcast, and that really opened my eyes to like how big of an impact that Pan Am had, not only to commercial aviation, but to the world as a whole. The podcast has been a staple of mine for years. Again, ever since I started listening, I was hooked. I all of a sudden, any other airline that I was obsessed with at the time immediately took second place to Pan Am because all of a sudden Pan Am just became my whole life. I just wanted to learn more. I wanted to just be immersed by it. I want to see people, normal, everyday people, not just aviation enthusiasts and historians learn and know the history of Pan Am. It's especially with the my generation, of course. I was born in 2005 and I never got to fly on Pan Am. And of course, with new generations to come, if we don't keep that history alive, it's sadly going to be forgotten. And this podcast has definitely been a great way to make sure that Pan Am story has not been forgotten. Jennifer, your thoughts.

SPEAKER_11 58:51

Well, Tom, this is a very special occasion, and I'm thrilled to be part of this podcast. Many thanks for your invitation. So it's a pleasure, and it's a privilege. Uh, I count this as a personal honor. And I've been involved from the very early days because you invited me to join you for episode number five, Rebranding the Icon. And of course, that was a huge subject, and I admired your approach to the subject at the time. Little did I know that five years later we would be speaking today, and thinking about your 95 hours of content and the 66 episodes, the 200,000 downloads. This is absolutely wonderful. And congratulations over and over again from many people who have enjoyed your podcasts. And it really is a tremendous achievement, and we can all celebrate your five years and the podcasts that you've created. It's a unique asset in the aviation world.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:05

Well, thank you very much. And Maddox, you mentioned the third episode. And uh back then I was still experimenting. I was still trying to figure out how to kind of tell these stories, and I felt like the third episode is where I started getting my mojo for this, uh, so to speak. And that was the episode about the Foines Flying Boat Museum in Ireland. And Jennifer, I understand that you were just there.

SPEAKER_11 1:00:31

That's right. Your episode three inspired me to write an article about flying boats, and I was very proud when the article was published in Aircraft Interior's International Design Showcase 2026. Uh, this is um a very uh important uh magazine publication in the civil aviation sector. And yes, I visited Poinz on the 22nd of April of this year, and I have been thrilled um to hear your conversation with Margaret O'Shaughnessy. And so when I went to Poynes, which is on the west coast of Ireland, the Shenan yesterday used to be a really important um port of call for the flying boats. I spoke with uh Ms. Rachel Rimmer, the director, and she immediately said, Well, she said, where's Tom Betty? I think she imagined that maybe I had managed to bring you with me on that occasion. She said, We're so grateful to Tom, because you know, she said he allocated an entire podcast episode to our museum. We were just thrilled. And then I said, Well, yes, Rachel, that's the reason I'm here. That episode inspired me to write my article. And when I visited the Yankee Clipper, the 100% replica using authentic materials uh of one trip's first flying boat, and I was just completely amazed. Um, because the headroom um is is is very, very high compared with uh normal civil aircraft these days. And in fact, it was very spacious and it was a bit like moving from one carriage to another on a train, uh reminiscent of being uh on a Pullman train, one of those European luxury trains in the early days that you see in the movies, um, the Agatha Christie movies. So I had a lovely time there, but they kept saying to me, but when is Tom Betty going to come to see us? They're gonna roll out the red carpet for you. They will be so thrilled.

SPEAKER_08 1:02:54

Uh well, I I really need to get over there. And uh I'll never forget Margaret um has she said that her goal if I visit is to see how many Irish coffees I can drink before I get drunk. And I'm a I'm a lightweight, so it's not gonna take me very many. But yeah, so that's what Margaret uh that's what her mission is if I come visit. So thank you for sharing that, Jennifer. Maddox, back to you. Um, I know you've listened to every single episode of this podcast at least once, maybe twice, maybe more. Um which ones stand out to you looking back over the last five years?

SPEAKER_09 1:03:32

Oh, that's a tough one because to me, all of them really stand out. All of them are very unique in their own mind, but I would have to say I think one of the most unique ones I think would have to be the one about Star Trek because um I had never really even had any interest in Star Trek, and then learning, of course, all about how Star Trek and Pan Am had been a thing to pop culture icons, kind of having a history, it it really shocked me, really. I had no idea, and then like I had friends who love Star Trek, and I would be like, Hey, did you know the person who made Star Trek was a Pan Am pilot and stuff? And I'm they were all so surprised. They were all like, You're you're lying, you that can't be true. And I'm like, it is, and that's kind of like one thing is that Pan Am is everywhere, kind of sort of it. There's a little bit of Pan Am and everything, and that's what I love is going someplace or hearing about something, and either me finding something about Pan Am or there's already something about Pan Am in that thing because Pan Am is everywhere. Pan Am it's whether it's in like a form of art, a picture, uh history, it's like it could be in the place you least expect it. And it's one of the most amazing things. I mean, Pan Am, of course, was everywhere. I mean, it was the second most I'm gonna quote something from a former Pan Am flight attendant said in a documentary. Um anywhere in the world you went, there were two names that people knew, Coca-Cola and Pan Am. And it was blazonly true. It's it was everywhere. So that's one of the one of the standout episodes that I definitely can remember. Um one I think that I listened to, I think, the most, I think is the one about the Tenerife accident. I because of course um I got to um when I was at the gala, I I got to had the honor of sitting next to or at the table um with um Miss Dorothy Kelly. Yes, Miss Dorothy Kelly, who was of course the stewardess on board that flight. And hearing her story and of course her heroism getting going back into Clipper Victor. Whereas of course it's on fire, falling apart, and going in there and getting as many people out, and it's ablaze into the the professionalism of Pan Am Cruise, of risking their own lives for again people they don't even know. Heck, it could be someone they were that they that person could have heck may have not even liked or something, but going back in there, making sure that they are alive, getting them out, getting them to safety, and of course, not getting any medical treatment, denying medical treatment until all of her passengers got it. It's a blaze into the professionalism, to what the Pan Am Stewardess and what Pan Am's crew were. They were absolute professionals. They were, of course, had the right, um, had that right to be called one of the the most professional, most experienced airline in the world because of that. They were, of course, not only experienced, but very, very friendly, very, very, like I said, family aspect. Everybody felt like family, and it's it's something I I get flight attendants all the time who look at my stuff, everything on like on my Facebook page and telling me their stories of Pan Am. And it just I love it.

SPEAKER_11 1:07:14

Yes, may I jump in on that topic? Uh, and uh relating to the comments, uh, heartfelt comments from Maddox, uh, with um episode uh 17, the Tenerife disaster. I do think that that was one of your very best episodes because this was a subject that uh everybody knew about in from the newspapers in terms of the uh uh accident at the airport, but people had not heard about the individual accounts from the flight attendants and flight deck crew and the Pan Amployees who were directly involved at the time of the accident and following the accident. And I think that you um helped Dorothy to really work through that process that she had endured. Her heroism is absolutely amazing, and uh has that episode has inspired us to look into these uh situations from the past in a different way, based on personal experiences alongside the factual um outcomes. And I know that Dorothy feels uh grateful to you. I've spoken with Dorothy on a number of occasions, and she said to me, he's the only person who asked me how I felt when I went back in um uh into that aircraft to find my passengers. He's the only person who asked me what my about my feelings. So I would call that a great achievement, alongside all the other technical achievements which um you have notched up in those other episodes.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:13

Um may I thank you for that.

SPEAKER_09 1:09:14

May I also jump in on this as well. Um she is right, Tom. This podcast has definitely been something very, very unique. I can't remember ever hearing a podcast where not only, because again, we get people all the time, again, who say how your podcast has changed them, but it's because of like not only do you get people um get you don't tell just what their Pan Am side, you don't just tell what the newspaper said, you get people who were there to explain their story, and you ask them how they feel, you get their real emotions, and it really helps deepen the story, it helps give this story character, it gives this person um uh feelings, it gives this whole it gives stories an actual true feeling. And it's something that again again helps people to come back to this is because it's not just somebody telling, it's not just one person telling what happened, it's uh somebody actually telling what they went through, what this meant to them, and how it changed their life. And you've given people uh who like Dorothy a platform that maybe their story was confined to maybe one newspaper or something, not something, and you've given them the whole world to tell their story. And it's what really it's one of the most unique things about this podcast that I really love.

SPEAKER_08 1:10:47

I really appreciate that. And to our listeners, um a lot of work goes, pre-work goes before I turn on the microphone. So for a lot of the guests, I have to talk to them for a long period of time and get some of them are very reluctant to share their stories, and we have to have several conversations, uh, hours on the phone to get them comfortable with me uh before we even turn on the microphone. So there's a lot of work that goes in. And I think that's important to point out because uh I developed this trust with folks, and my goal is to tell their story. And you know, like for example, the Lockerbie episode was very difficult because I was actually talking to the brother of one of the flight attendants that was killed in that tragedy, and it was extremely difficult uh because I want to be respectful to their family and to him uh and to his sister that uh passed away in that tragedy. Uh but I felt that like for Lockerby, for example, nobody talks about the victims. And those victims are, I don't want them to be a footnote in history. I spent a lot of time talking about his sister and what kind of woman she was and her childhood and her interests, because it was important to tell her story. Because sometimes the victims' story are left out of these disasters.

SPEAKER_09 1:12:14

And you're exactly right, Tom. Um, yeah, Lockerby is a very touching subject, but you were able to handle it with not the utmost professionalism. Again, you're giving people who really haven't had their story told getting their story told. And there's a and that's a one big thing about that is you're you have a way of getting something as big as Lockerby, something that a lot of people, again, know, but you're able to make it not uh how do I put this sensationalize. You make it more personal. You make it something where it's though it's a tough subject to talk about, you have a way of making it easy. Well, from our perspective, a way of making it easy for these people to open up. Give them a space to talk, letting them know that you're not going to be judged for what you're going to talk about, that you're we are here to hear your side of the story, the good sides, the bad sides, and the in-betweens.

SPEAKER_08 1:13:15

So, Jennifer, let's talk about our Concord episode that we put together. Uh, any thoughts uh that you'd like to share with our listeners about that episode?

SPEAKER_11 1:13:27

Well, um uh we're talking about uh episode 19, and it was uh amaz I thought it was amazing that you were interested in Concord. And uh when I arrived at Pan Am to take up, I was very um proud to be offered the job of General Manager Product Design and Development at Pan Am. I had come from British Airways, where I was controller corporate identity, with responsibility for aircraft interiors and exteriors, the implementation of design schemes across the airline, not just the fleet, but also ground vehicles, airport facilities, airport lounges, city ticket offices, signage, uniforms, band identities, and so on. When I came to Pan Am at the Pan Am building and walked into the boardroom, there was a Concorde in Pan Am Livery. I was completely amazed. And the colleagues uh explained to me, yes, yes, one trip had placed an initial order um to purchase um uh a Concorde fleet. Well, this was really exciting, and at that time I was so busy with other other subjects and other urgent matters. I didn't dig into the background, but you did, and this is something that's interesting across all your episodes, the uh level of verification that you demand, I know, because you have spoken to me before um the episodes where I participated. And you dug into that subject. And I think it's wonderful that you um brought to the surface the background, uh John F. Kennedy, uh the activities of One Trip, the reasons for making those changes. And yes, I do dream sometimes, oh, how wonderful it would have been if Pan Am had been operating Concord on the Atlantic. There could have been competition against British Airways and air France, and competition pushes everyone to move ahead. Uh, there could have been possibly in those days pool partnerships of some kind or interline agreements of some kind. That would have been another possible business development platform. Pan Am might have been able to um fly Concorde on other uh routes, major business hubs. Uh what about um the uh Pacific area, you know, um into uh maybe Tokyo uh or into Hong Kong. So um there are dreams out there. And I thought it was wonderful that you moved on to episode 46 with Captain Bannister and his book entitled Concord, because um, with the benefit of hindsight and writing in retrospect, Captain Bannister is our great authority on the life and times of Concord, the 27 years of operation, and uh the Air France tragedy, where he was an expert witness during the court case. And you covered all those developments from the earliest stages, Wanfritt's aspirations and ambitions, all the way around through um the operating life of Concorde. I was able to contribute along with John Lampole and Captain Bannister, and then uh Captain Bannister's own book. I think that that's a wonderful arc of information about that amazing aircraft, and we can all celebrate the first generation supersonic passenger services, and that's how I feel. Um I was devastated when I heard that British Airways was going to cease operations in 2003. Um, but we can look back and we can celebrate first generation supersonic because we now see the development, the development of second generation supersonic passenger services, boom supersonic, busy working away in North Carolina, Greensboro. And so we can all feel really happy about what's going to come. And your episodes have given us detailed information with uh full verification all the way through. Congratulations on taking on that subject. Not an easy subject, Tom.

SPEAKER_08 1:18:26

Thank you very much. Maddox, um, any closing thoughts, any favorite episodes you want to mention?

SPEAKER_09 1:18:34

Well, uh, first I do want to mention to Jennifer um your design work that you did for Pan Am back in when you did work for them is something that's absolutely amazing. I've seen a heck. I think I might I know I still have the little book I think you made, a little tiny booklet from the designs and stuff. I look at that with fondness, and you I have to say that your team did an absolute amazing job back in the day doing that. Closing thoughts. Well, I want to say to any future viewers of this program that if you think that it deserves to be remembered, do your best to make it remembered, like this podcast um has done. It um I think Pan Am, I think all of Pan Am deserves to be remembered, not just because of its advancements in aviation, but for its people. I mean I mean, case in point, I mean you guys took me, somebody just somebody who just happened to show admiration for the show and not only noticed and let me know that you guys thanked me, you guys nurtured it. Not only has this podcast helped me in discovering Pan Am, but it's helped me discover wonderful, wonderful people that I can now consider lifelong friends like Miss Linda Frere, Philip Keene, yourself, Tom, Jennifer, and several other amazing people who we all have one big huge connection, that's Pan Am, but we get together and talk about a whole lot more things than just Pan Am a lot of the times. We talk about our personal lives. We talk about it's truly become something of a family. And it's a family that I cherish with every atom of my body. It's something I am extremely, extremely proud to be be a part of. I wake up every day thankful that I'm a part of this unique, wonderful family of individuals who not only got to travel the world, but make it possible for people to travel the world. And I just have to thank you, Tom. Thank everyone, because not only have you guys noticed me, but you guys like flew me out to the gala a couple of years back.

SPEAKER_08 1:20:58

Well, yeah. Tell tell us about that story.

SPEAKER_09 1:21:01

Yeah. So um originally, Tom, um, when Tom had let me know already, I was, I think, I was already first thing I noticed is one episode, the episode with um Mary Lou Bigelow, you gave me a shout-out. And I remember sitting in my bed and it was like, about for you about to say that, I was like, oh, it'd be wonderful. Like I got, and then I heard my name. I think my heart stopped beating for like two seconds. And I ran out of my room, and I swear I was like a chicken with its head cut off, just running around. I was like, I'm on the podcast and everything.

SPEAKER_08 1:21:39

And then And to our listeners, Maddox sent in a comment saying that you know, he loved the podcast and he loves history more now because of it. And I was so touched by that comment. And that was one of my first real comments from from the demographic that this podcast is aimed towards, and that's young people. So I I felt like it was a breakthrough. And that was Maddox's comment to me.

SPEAKER_09 1:22:06

And I I really do truly appreciate it, appreciate it every day. And um originally I thought I was going to be on the podcast, is what you said, but it was actually, I would say, kind of a ruse. My parents are good at hiding things. And um the day that I thought I was actually going to be on the podcast, my mom was leaving for because my mom knows um I research everything when she flies. So she, of course, had to go into exact detail and told me she was going to Washington, which didn't sound all different. So she had sent me, of course, a flight that was an American Eagle flight that was heading to New York, but that was a stopover before a flight to Washington.

SPEAKER_08 1:22:49

So I and for our listeners, I had been talking to Maddox's parents uh well before this, uh, setting this all up.

SPEAKER_09 1:23:02

And uh yeah, they're good at keeping secrets. They know how to really keep me off the trail. The one thing that may have no made me think that something was off is when my mom is going supposedly going on a trip to Washington and yet she's packing my uh suit. And I'm like, why are you packing my suit? You're not gonna need that. And I would I casually made a joke as well as like, well, if you're going to Washington, stopware in New York, just take me on the flight to New York, drop me off there, and get me on your way back. But um then the day comes to where we're supposed to drop off my mom at the airport. And so my dad's like, well, how about you wear your Pan Am shirt? And I'm like, Of course. And so I wear that. I, of course, have a Pan Am bag with me. I especially when I go to the airport, I tried not to leave home without one. Um, I get to the airport. This is my first time heading over to the American check-in desk, and I'm checking, trying to check in for my mom, and then my mom pulls me over with a video and she's like, Well, Maddox, I'm not going to um Washington, I'm going to New York and you're coming too. I short circuit for like maybe two, three seconds before I'm like hugging her. I'm like, wait, what? Because it's all happening so fast. I'm like, wait, I'm going to New York. I start pinching myself. I'm like, is this a dream or something? And like, I'm like up at security and I'm like thinking, I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm actually going to New York. This is like my first time flying on an airline that wasn't southwest too. So that was also exciting. But from the moment we landed in New York, I'm I just, I was just so excited. And then the first day of the gala was as was, of course, at the um Spirit Airlines, um, former, sadly, former Spirit Airlines Terminal and former Pan Am Terminal. Um, well, I consider it still a Pan Am terminal, the Marine Air Terminal, the one of the original structures at LaGuardia that was a Pan Am seaplane terminal. And um there for um an event. And it was amazing. Got to meet several amazing friends. One that I speak to a lot that I met there is um um Carol, who is a um who is a former Pan Am stewardess who now works for United. Um she's wonderful. Of course, I met finally got to meet you in person, Tom. Um of course got to read your amazing work that you curated and put into the bag from you, Jennifer, which was absolutely amazing. I love that. And thank thank you. You're very welcome. Thank you. Um and I just got to meet so many, so many wonderful people. I, of course, got to meet Ed, which I oh my gosh. Um I you do not know how extremely like I was I could explode at any moment. I just felt like it's like I got to meet Ed Tripp, the son of Juan Tripp. It just felt I was so excited. It it just didn't feel real. And um it yeah, I I had a wonderful time, and then came the next day the actual gala event, and I um it was it was amazing, absolutely amazing. I um getting to finally see the museum was such a treat. Getting to I also got to take a picture next to one of the cardboard cutouts of like of the stewardess. Not only did I get to take a picture next to that cutout, I got to take a picture next to the actual person who was in that cutout. So I actually got to take a picture to uh next to both of them. So that was fun. Um, again, got to um see the model of the iconic Pan Am Worldport, um, which was beautiful. And I also got to meet one of my lifelong best friends, um, I would say um Miss Susan Classen, or as we love to call her Miss Edith Head, got to meet her. She is absolutely amazing. She recently had went to Oklahoma and I got to finally get to see her again when she performed her one way one woman show, a conversation with Edith Head, Oklahoma, which was amazing. And I just it's just something I look on every single day with absolute fondness, and I'm just so grateful for all of your guys' generosity. It's something that has remained with me for the rest of my life, and it's something I just love to talk about. I always, anytime I talk about Pan Am or somebody talks about Pan Am, I always try, and especially when I post something, I always try to include the museum as something, either if it's like Pan Am Museum or like in a post that like somebody sees it, they can click on that and maybe. Learn more from the museum. Or like just mentioning where the museum is to people. So that was like, oh, whenever you're in New York, go to the museum. Beautiful. Something I look on every single day with fondness and for an airline to take interest in me, and an airline like Pan Am to take interest in me has been like a dream.

SPEAKER_08 1:28:25

Any closing thoughts, Maddox and Jennifer, as we're nearing the end of my final interview, uh, which it's bittersweet to say.

SPEAKER_11 1:28:35

I wanted to ask, can I jump in there, Tom? How are you feeling now? Um, as uh as we draw to a close of your amazing uh track record. How are you feeling? Yeah, how are you feeling, Tom?

SPEAKER_08 1:28:49

Well well, here you go to our listeners around the world. The tables are turned and they're asking me a question. Um, you know, it it's very difficult. Um, I have made some incredible friends over the last five years doing this Panam work. But I'm extremely proud of what I built with this program and the history that I was able to share with lots of different people all over the the world. So um it's bittersweet, it's a little emotional, I'll I'll I'll admit, but I'm very, very proud on what I've accomplished, and I think that all good things must come to an end at at some point, and I've decided to go out uh on uh at the peak of the mountain on my own terms, and I felt that this was the the right time to do that.

SPEAKER_09 1:29:47

Again, you have I would definitely say changed the face of how you should handle journaling, of how people should handle journaling or doing a story. You have definitely created something amazing. And I would say, I mean, many people may have already known that um Pan Am has filed for recertification to become an airline again. And I believe this is a perfect time because we're closing. I don't want to say we're closing the chapter on this history of Pan Am, but we're giving time that if this new Pan Am for this new Pan Am to hopefully make new stories, and hopefully, maybe we'd be able to come back to this and talk about those stories as well, hopefully, in the future. Maybe we've had very informative, amazing, heartfelt, emotional episodes that we can all look back on with awkwardness and it just it opens conversations. Like this entire entire interview has been us talking about these and how these episodes are opening up conversations for us. I mean, we've we've had almost an hour of talking and reminiscing about how these episodes episodes have affected us as a community as and how they have changed our community. And it's a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_11 1:31:14

Unique and the unique doesn't just belong to you, it belongs to and it belongs to the civil aviation sector. A new way to uh analyze and the activities of the aviation world. And I just think it's an amazing achievement and yes, this is something for all of us to celebrate. Thank you to you and your work.

SPEAKER_09 1:31:48

Also to our listeners, to the listeners that not only has Tom helped out with the um history of Pan Am, but um I'm gonna put you on the spot here, Tom. Um he has also created some wonderful books and has definitely helped in the history of his own community in Columbus, Ohio, with creating wonderful books about different amazing buildings. He himself, of course, lives in an iconic um historical building in Columbus yourself with your wonderful dog Roosevelt.

SPEAKER_08 1:32:20

Yeah, well, thank you both. Um you know, it's it's an emotional end, but uh I I couldn't have thought of a better group of people to spend it with. And uh I want to thank you both for your time, um, your support over the years, uh, and for your friendship.

SPEAKER_11 1:32:42

Thank you. Thank you, Tom. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure and a privilege. Thank you.

SPEAKER_08 1:32:48

Thank you very much. And with that, that is my last interview, and I'll have some closing thoughts in a moment.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:56

Leave the train on the back. Leave the game in the body of the tight end.

SPEAKER_08 1:33:54

Six guests, three conversations, one final episode. I have been thinking about what to say here for a while, and I kept coming back to the same place. The numbers are real, and I'm very proud of them. More than 200,000 downloads, over 180 countries, 66 episodes, more than 95 hours of content, multiple awards, a perfect five-star rating on Apple Podcasts, five years of volunteer work that became something far larger than I imagined when I sat down to record the very first episode. But the numbers are not the story. The listeners are the story. Over five years, the reviews and messages that came in painted a picture of what this program actually did in the world. A current international airline crew member wrote that a particular episode raised the bar to an even higher and extraordinary level. A working pilot called it a well-produced, immersive podcast in a must-listen. A listener traveling the world for work with no aviation background at all wrote to say that the storytelling had pulled them in regardless. A history enthusiast who had never given Pan Am a second thought wrote to say they could not stop listening. That last category matters to me as much as any other. This program was built as a history and humanities project. But the reviews make it clear it found audiences far outside that world because the stories were strong enough to cross over. And then there is this review I think about more than any other. A listener named Thomas Presnell wrote in after episode 43, the episode about the Rome terrorist attack in 1973, to tell me that Bonnie Presnell, one of the victims of that bombing, was his cousin. He wrote that his family had learned details about what happened that were previously unknown to them. A podcast episode reuniting a family with history that they did not know they had lost. I did not anticipate that when I started this program. I could not have. That is what happens when you tell the truth about the past with care and make it available to anyone who needs it. A former Pan Am Flight attendant wrote that the podcast stirred up memories she had forgotten. Another listener wrote that it reminded them what it felt like to work for and fly on this groundbreaking airline. These were not nostalgic listeners passively remembering. They were people finding something they thought was gone. That is why Pan Am history matters. That is why it's worth preserving. Not because it belongs in a museum, though it does, not because it deserves documentation, though it does, but because it is still alive in people, and when you give those people a place to speak, something real happens. To every guest who trusted me with their story, thank you. What you shared will be in the archive long after this microphone is silent. To Becky, Wendy, Ken, Philip, Jennifer, and Maddox, thank you for being part of this final episode. You made it exactly what I hoped it would be. To our listeners, I want to say this as plainly as I can, you made this program what it is. A podcast with no budget and no promotional machine does not reach 180 countries without listeners who care enough to share it, review it, and write in to tell that host that it mattered to them. You did that. I am grateful in a way I genuinely struggle to put into words here. The stories of Pan Am will continue to be told, and I hope this program has made the case that they are worth telling. History is best kept alive by the people who lived it, and by the ones who loved it enough to make sure it was not forgotten. It has been the honor of my life to be one of those people. Somewhere out there, there is an anonymous humanity scholar who told me they did not understand what a bygone defunct airline had to do with history. I have thought about that comment every single day of this program. I wish I could find that person and say thank you. They have no idea what they started. To our listeners, in over 180 countries, from Columbus, Ohio, to wherever you are in the world right now, Pan Am once promised you the world. I hope this program delivered a small piece of it. I wish you blue skies and tailwinds. This program has been the flight of a lifetime. This is Tom Betty, and this has been the Pan Am Podcast.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:53

It's only a between the world.