SPEAKER_00 0:14

Welcome to the Pan Am Podcast, brought to you by the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York. This podcast and our museum are dedicated to celebrating the legacy of the world's most iconic airlock, Pan American World Airways. My name is Tom Betty, and I'm the host of this program. Thank you for joining us. The Pan Am Museum Foundation is a nonprofit organization. Please visit our website for more information at the Pan Ammuseum.org. Again, our website is the Panamuseum.org. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. If you are using Apple Podcasts, please consider leaving a review. It will help others discover this program. This podcast is sponsored by the generous personal support of Mr. Adam Aaron, the CEO and chairman of AMC Theatres. He is also president of our sister organization, the Pan Am Historical Foundation. If you're not familiar with Pan Am, welcome. We are honored to have you here, and for you to learn about what we're all about. If you already know of Pan Am, worked for, or flown on the airline, or just love our history, it's good to be with you again. So with that, let's get this episode in the air, so to speak. Welcome aboard your Pan American jet clipper. We'll be joined by Twa Boy, Vice President of Programs and Services for Holt International. And we welcome back to the program Al Topping, who was Pan Am's country director for South Vietnam. This episode is a follow-up to Episode 4, Evacuation of Saigon, Wings of Freedom Mission. If you haven't heard this installment, we encourage you to do so after listening to this episode. But first, I'd like to take a few moments and thank the corporate sponsors of the Pan Am Museum's recent annual fundraising gala held in October 2023. They are PKF O'Connor Davies, CDS Mestel Construction Corporation, Fair Portal, Swissport, People's Alliance Federal Credit Union, formerly known as Pan Am Federal Credit Union, ARASHIP, GAT Airline Ground Support, Spirit Airlines, Zufhi Wine Company, and Prime Flight Aviation Services. Thank you again for your generous support to keep Pan Am's history alive and well. In addition, we would like to thank our keynote speaker, former federal counterterrorism agent Fred Burton, our special guest speaker, Pan Am's Vice President of In-Flight Services, Hector Adler, MC Christine Negroni, and for Entertainment, Susan Clausen as Edith Head, and Sarati for Performing Arts. We also have some exciting news to share. It is my great honor to inform you that Ed Tripp, the youngest son of Pan Am founder and longtime chairman Juan Tripp, has been named honorary chairman of the Pan Am Museum Foundation. Operation Babylift was directed by U.S. President Gerald R. Ford in the final days of South Vietnam, shortly before the country fell in 1975. The operation was a mass evacuation of over 3,000 war orphans from South Vietnam to the United States and other Western countries for adoption in April of 1975. Pan American World Airways sent two Boeing 747 jumbo jets, one chartered by Holt International and the other by American businessman Robert Macaulay to assist in the evacuation. On March 29th, 1975, the central Vietnamese city of Danang fell to North Vietnamese forces, setting off a domino effect that brought into focus that Saigon was now at extreme risk of being overrun, and the country was close to defeat. Adoption agency Holt International, as well as service organizations, including Friends of Children of Vietnam, Friends for All Children, Catholic Relief Services, International Social Services, International Orphans, and the Pearl S. Buck Foundation petitioned the Ford administration to help evacuate orphans in their various facilities throughout South Vietnam. On April 3rd, 1975, President Ford announced that the U.S. government would begin airlifting orphans out of Saigon on a series of 30-planned flights aboard Military Airlift Command C-5A Galaxy and C-141 Starlifter Cargo Aircraft operated by the 62nd Airlift Wing of the United States Air Force. Let's take a listen to President Ford's press conference in San Diego on April 3rd, 1975. This recording is courtesy of the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library and Museum.

SPEAKER_05 6:06

Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States.

SPEAKER_06 6:21

We are seeing a great human tragedy. The United States has been doing and will continue to do its utmost to assist these people. I have directed that all available naval ships stand off into China to do whatever is necessary to assist. We have appealed to the United Nations to use its moral influence to permit these innocent people to leave, and we call on North Vietnam to permit the movement of refugees to the area of their choice. While I've been in California, I have been spending many hours on the refugee problem and our humanitarian efforts. I have directed that money from a $2 million special foreign aid children's fund be made available to fly 2,000 South Vietnamese orphans to the United States as soon as possible. I have also directed American officials in Saigon to act immediately to cut red tape and other bureaucratic obstacles preventing these children from coming into the United States. I have directed that C-5A aircraft and other aircraft specially equipped to care for these orphans during the flight be sent to Saigon. I expect these flights to begin within the next 36 to 48 hours. These orphans will be flown to Travis Air Force Base in California and other bases on the West Coast and cared for in those locations. These 2,000 Vietnamese orphans are all in the process of being adopted by American families. This is the least we can do, and we will do much, much more.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

The next day, on April 4, 1975, Operation Babylift began with a C5A galaxy plane loaded with children, military, and medical personnel taking off from Saigon around 4 p.m. local time. Twelve minutes after takeoff, at an altitude of 23,000 feet, a mechanical failure caused the locks of the rear loading ramp to fail, causing the door to explode open with a massive decompression. Control and trim cables to the rudder and elevators were severed, leaving only one aileron and wing spoilers operating. Two of the four hydraulic systems also failed. The pilots desperately tried to fly the crippled plane back to the airport for an emergency landing, however, were unable and tragically crashed in a rice paddy. According to the United States Defense Intelligence Agency, of the over 300 souls on board, 138 people were killed, including 78 children and 35 military staff from the Defense Attache Office and 11 U.S. Air Force personnel. Let's take a listen to a report from CBS News from April 4th, 1975, when many Americans learn the devastating news. The clip is about two and a half minutes. Please be advised that the reporter speaks in graphic detail of the horror he saw at the crash site. Listener discretion is advised.

SPEAKER_10 9:57

From CBS News headquarters in New York, this is the CBS Evening News with Walter Cronkite.

SPEAKER_08 10:05

Good evening. In South Vietnam today, a ghastly chapter was added to the pathos of war that has gripped that country for the past 30 years. A huge C-5 Air Force cargo plane carrying 243 South Vietnamese orphans to the United States, the first in the government-ordered airlift, crashed in a rice paddy near Saigon just minutes after takeoff. More than half the children and as many as 40 of the 62 escorts and crew aboard were killed. Murray Thompson reports.

SPEAKER_07 10:40

It took an order from President Ford to dispatch the C-5A to Saigon. Then the agreement of Vietnamese authorities to expedite passports and exit visas for the orphans. Some of those put aboard the plane had been born only weeks ago. Most seemed to be between the ages of two and eight. Some sat along the side of the plane, others were strapped to the floor, more terrified of the television lights than their first trip in an airplane. Wives of American officials being evacuated home with their own children agreed to act as chaperones to the orphans. Destinations on the West Coast, and then onwards to American families who had already begun the abduction process. Two hours ago, I watched this airplane take off from TensorFlow. It was a perfect takeoff carrying most orphans to the United States. What can one say except little misery in this country ever stopped? The huge plane crashed into a field about five miles from the end of the runway, near a small village in Jordan province. There were pieces of record scattered across a half a mile of rice paddy. A fire was slowly burning itself out near the engines. Smashed buddies or parts of them were uncovered by Vietnamese Air Force crews and American officials who rushed to the scene. It was like a combat operation. Helicopters hovered overhead. Body bags were used to remove corpses for identification purposes. A hand here, a head there, shirts, books, diapers, all too grotesque to describe further. Vietnamese soldiers stood guard and said nothing. Villagers watched from a nearby railroad crossing. Other helicopters came back to Tonsunu Air Base where the ill-fated trip had begun. American and Vietnamese volunteers removed some of the body bags and other bodies wrapped in white sheets. Scores of ambulances rushed survivors to a nearby hospital. Some of the chaperones were in a state of shock. Moments before they had been happy to be leaving Saigon. The orphans were to be the first of 2,000 to be airlisted out of Vietnam. Many were mixed blood, the children of Vietnamese women and black American G.Is. They would never have had a chance for happiness in Vietnam, where racial prejudice is as strong as in any other country. Now they have no chance at all. Murray Thomson, CBS News in Jaden Province.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Following this disaster, the Ford administration turned to Holt International and Pan American World Airways to help with the evacuation. Holt quickly chartered a 747 with a volunteer crew from Pan Am. Watching the news broadcast you just heard, businessman Robert Macaulay picked up the phone and called Pan Am to charter the second Jumbo jet. Within hours of the tragedy, two Pan Am 747 aircraft were en route to Saigon to begin the evacuation. Both planes had volunteer crews as flying into South Vietnam was considered a war zone. Every space of the passenger compartments of the jumbo jets were used for the evacuation. Flight attendants, nurses, doctors, and airline personnel cared for the children throughout the long flights. Some of these children were in very, very poor health and required constant attention. The Pan Am planes arrived in the United States in the late hours of April 5th, 1975. President and Mrs. Ford traveled to San Francisco to meet the arriving Pan Am 747. The President and First Lady went on board the plane and helped move the children to waiting caregivers and medical personnel. Here's an excerpt from First Lady Betty Ford's press secretary, Sheila Weidenfeld,'s memoir titled First Lady's Lady with the Fords at the White House. Quote Mrs. Ford and the rest of us flew to San Francisco on Air Force One to be there when the first plane load of orphans arrived. It was an incredible scene. There were more than 300 children on board, and most were unsettled, and some had been very sick. It had been an exhausting trip, and the arrival was emotionally draining for all, passengers and observers. Since they had not released the list of yesterday's crash victims, there were prospective parents at the airport who did not know whether their adoptive children were alive or dead. I'll never forget the look on the face of one woman who was waiting nervously to find out. She got good news her child had arrived safely. She remained composed until she looked up and saw Mrs. Ford standing there. And then something made her crumble and she began crying and crying and crying. End quote.

SPEAKER_11 16:23

San Francisco, doctors said today that 31 of the South Vietnamese orphans flown in last night are nearly dead tonight, suffering from shock and dehydration. 47 babies are being treated at hospitals by teams of volunteer doctors. Some have chickenpox. Some are survivors of Friday's plane crash that nearly killed 200 people. Several planes came in last night. Several more are arriving today. President Ford was in San Francisco last night to greet one of them and to welcome more than 300 new residents of the United States. Fred Briggs was at the airport for the arrival ceremonies there.

SPEAKER_09 16:57

The Pan Am 747 jet was chartered by Connecticut textile executive Robert McCauley. He paid for the jet, and more than 300 Vietnamese orphans were brought into San Francisco, including nearly a hundred who survived last week's C-5 crash near Saigon. That, plus the fact that this was the largest airlift to date, brought President and Mrs. Ford here to meet the plane. The children who had been injured in the C-5 disaster were the first to be evacuated from the plane. Ambulances took them to Butterman Army Hospital in the city. Then the president himself boarded the plane. He brought two orphans off the plane and carried them to buses. Unlike earlier airlifts, the children of these buses were taken to the Army's presidio in San Francisco for processing. Later they will be transported to the people around the country who have adopted them. Fred Briggs, NBC News, San Francisco.

SPEAKER_11 17:51

Nearly all of the orphans now arriving in this country have already been adopted. The children arriving on the West Coast are traveling from there to all parts of the United States. Of those who arrived at Seattle last night, 56 were on the way to New York City, and 76 other children were heading for Chicago. And Bob Jameson has that part of the rescue story.

SPEAKER_10 18:18

The largest movement of children from Vietnam since the airlift began.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Most parents had waited at the airport six anxious hours to see their new children, in their fears they might never arrive with a punch and for nearly half the youngsters, the trip wasn't over.

SPEAKER_10 18:38

They were voted aboard another Pan American trip donated by the airline for a flight to meet parents in Chicago and New York. It hardly seemed like a journey for children from war to new homes in a strange land. The orphans settled into the airline seats like experienced travelers. The Jets first-class galley held diapers and formulas, not steaks and martinis. And airline meals, unfamiliar to the young Vietnamese. An easy adjustment for orphans who must now overcome jet lag language barriers and the emotional upheaval that comes with leaving an orphanage or a foster home or a new country, a new family. Yet these orphans were not unlike any other child their age. Seven-month-old Lee Van Minnesota, who today began a new life in the Midwest. The adopted son of Mr. and Mrs. John Gillis of Appleton, Wisconsin.

SPEAKER_11 20:23

William Martin, the American ambassador to South Vietnam, was quoted by opposition politicians in Saigon today as saying the evacuation of orphans will help shift American public opinion in favor of the South Vietnamese. But the American Embassy answered that by saying that Martin's overriding concern is the welfare of the children.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

In the end, over 3,000 infants and children were evacuated and sent to adoptive families. A good majority of the children were of U.S. service members, and most were orphans. But with the chaos of war and language barriers, there were a small number that may have had parents who were still alive, so the program had some controversy afterwards. In President Ford's autobiography, he wrote, Everyone suffers in a war, but no one suffers more than the children, and the airlift was the least we could do. On April 24th, 2022, the Pan Am Museum partnered with Holt International and hosted a 47th anniversary celebration. In attendance were two dozen babies, now adults, and their families. They were reunited with three Pan Am flight attendants on their flights, and Al Topping. Bringing these groups together for this special humanities program demonstrated the massive positive impact this one historical event had on generations of people to this day. There is a link to a video from this incredible event in the episode description. In future episodes, we plan Exploring the stories of the children, now adults, of Operation Babylift and the Pan Am flight attendants that cared for them on those historic flights. The work that Pan Am, Holt International, and others did to rescue those children was the truest example of the good within the human spirit and changed lives for the better. Today, Holt International continues that important work. Holt pioneered the modern practice of international adoption in 1956 and continues to be the leading agency in the United States. Thousands of children have joined loving permanent families throughout their adoption programs. Holt's primary focus is to help children remain in the loving care of their birth families whenever possible. You can help with that mission by becoming a monthly sponsor like me. I'm a proud sponsor of a boy living with his grandparents in Vietnam. Please consider joining me. Your monthly donation provides education, nutrition, and more for your sponsored child, helping them rise above poverty. There's a link in the episode description to become a Holt sponsor. Let's learn a little more about the history of Holt International by listening to a short clip before our interview.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Harry and Bertha Holt saw need across the world. Children orphaned, abandoned, desperately in need of help. They knew these children needed and deserved one thing: a family. A loving and caring home. So they stepped boldly into the gap. Harry got on a plane to begin that work, and Bertha started making phone calls, tirelessly lobbying the seats of government, because at that time that's what they were called to do. A thing called international adoption had never been done before. It took both houses of Congress to pass a special law so that Harry and Bertha could adopt eight orphan children from South Korea. And on that day, international adoption was born. Since then, Holt International has grown to become a voice and a provider for children across the world. At our core is the same belief of our founders that every child deserves a loving and secure home. Through the decades, we've brought tens of thousands of children home through international adoption and in-country adoption, and kept countless numbers of families at risk together where they live around the world, solving a crisis for a child before it ever begins. We are Holt International. We've been stepping into the gap for children for over 60 years. And we're just getting started.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Now on to our interview. Two has more than 20 years of experience in advocacy, financial and international program development and management, fundraising, and developing family strengthening and adoption services for vulnerable children in developing countries. She holds a master's degree in social work awarded by the Fulbright Scholarship and had directed fieldwork experience at the Holt Vietnam office prior to coming to Holt International. Two has worked in numerous countries and systems. This experience gives her a unique perspective and understanding about the cultures, institutions, the needs and challenges faced by vulnerable children and families, and the possible solutions that will bring holistic and sustainable change. Al Topping began his career with the Institute of International Education arranging travel for foreign exchange students. He then joined United Airlines in 1966 as a passenger service agent and was later promoted to service director, where Pan Am recruiters took notice. Al joined Pan Am in 1969 as a sales representative assigned to the San Francisco sales office. In November of 1972, he was promoted and became the Pan Am Director of Vietnam and Cambodia based in Saigon, South Vietnam. After leaving Saigon in April of 1975, Al managed operations in various Pan Am stations overseas for the next eight years. He returned to the States in 1982 to be appointed assistant to the chairman of consumer affairs by Pan Am CEO Ed Acker. For the next nine years, Al held other executive management positions within the company, having risen to head of corporate communications when Pan Am ceased operations in December of 1991. After Pan Am, he worked for the Miami Dade School Board Administration, the Miami Herald, and the Mikasuke Golf and Country Club in Miami, Florida. Now fully retired and frequently enjoying golf, he lives with his wife Jan in Ocala, Florida. Al is the author of Wings of Freedom, a True Story, about his incredible experience in Saigon. You can find a link in the episode description to purchase this book from the museum's online store. In 1990, NBC made a movie out of Al's story called Last Flight Out, starring James Earl Jones, Richard Krenna, and Rosalind Chow. A YouTube link to the full movie is also in the episode description. Welcome to the program to both of you. Welcome to Twa. This is your first time on the program representing Holt International. And welcome back to the podcast Al. Al was featured in episode four of this program. Before we talk about Operation Baby Lift in the spring of 1975, Twa, let's start with you. Tell us a little bit about the history of Holt International.

SPEAKER_04 28:37

Yeah, in um 1954, our fouters, Harry and Bertha Holtz from Oregon, they watched a video about Korean war offense. And they were very moved by the video, by the situation of the children. They saw in the video. They started to provide sponsorship support to the children in Korea. And in 1955, the family started to lobby and advocate to the US government to pass the first international adoption law to allow them to adopt the first children from Korea. And they brought home their children in 1955. And in 1956, the family started to create established Whole International as an adoption agency to help many more children from Korea to have permanent families of their own. And that was our story and history. Nowadays, Whole International operates in 16 different countries in the world, where we provide family-strengthening services for vulnerable children and families with the goal of keeping children with the birth families if possible. And we continue to provide international adoption services for children who need permanent families from 11 different countries.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

So Al was the subject of a movie called Last Flight Out. It is actually on the Pan Am Museum's YouTube page, and you can watch the whole movie. And he was played by James Earl Jones. So, Al, why don't you tell our listeners that have not listened to you already on episode four, but they probably will after listening to this installment. Tell us a little bit about your connection to Pan Am and being the station manager of South Vietnam and Cambodia.

SPEAKER_03 30:50

Well, first of all, when I joined Pan Am in 1969, I was hired in New York as a sales rep. After two weeks in New York, I was transferred to San Francisco. And one of the things I always wanted to do was to become a Pan Amp station manager somewhere. In 1972, when Pan Am was going through a lot of organizational changes, my boss in San Francisco called me in and said, Are you still interested in being a Pan Amp station manager? I said, Absolutely. He said, Well, a lot of changes are going on, and uh there may be some opportunities coming up in the Pacific Division. And I said, Okay, that sounds good. And I'm thinking when he said Pacific Division, my first thought was Hawaii, but uh I knew that was probably not going to happen. Anyway, to make a long story short, he he told me that um I would be uh the Pan Am director for operations in Saigon and Cambodia. And my immediate response was no, thank you. I mean, I love San Francisco, and I the the sort of the thought of going to a war zone did not appeal to me at the time. In any event, uh he talked me into thinking about it a couple of days, and in fact, suggested I go out to Saigon and take a look around and then make a decision, which is what I did. And uh and the bottom line is I did make the decision to take the job. During that time, the war was winding down. In fact, I arrived on station in November of 1972, and in January of 73, uh ceasefire agreement, peace agreement was signed in Paris by all the parties, and the war was over, uh, at least on paper it was. By the way, we're I know we're talking about the Operation Baby Lift, but Pan Am was involved from my my very first time on station in Saigon. I found out that we have been carrying orphans in small groups, maybe two, three, four, or five orphans at a time, from Vietnam to the United States all along on Pan Am, but on a very you know limited basis. And that was an ongoing program where we provided uh free transportation for escorts. And in fact, a lot of employees uh on their own time uh would take their vacation time and go out to Saigon and escort orphans back to the United States. So that was a very controlled and um operation. And uh little did I know at that time that two and a half years later that whole situation would no longer be very organized, but would be chaotic and uh and also a life-saving mission, which I think we'll talk about later on.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Let's talk about uh that spring of 1975. So it was pretty apparent to many people that South Vietnam days were numbered and recognizing the need to get these war orphans out of the country for fear of what the North Vietnamese army would do to them, Holt International, along with a handful of other child service organizations, petitioned President Ford and his administration for an urgent need for action. Twa, can you tell us a little bit about Holt's role in petitioning President Ford, and that was the genesis of Operation Baby Lift?

SPEAKER_04 34:32

It was an uncertain time for everyone involved, including us. Um, at the time, Holt had more than 400 children in our care in Vietnam. And of course, we were very concerned for our children. We joined other organizations to submit a petition to the Ford administration to allow the children to leave. And um and very luckily, President Ford announced on the Vietnamese offense in the adoption process with U.S. adoptive families would be airlifted out of Vietnam. And our team in the field in Vietnam and in the head office in Oregon worked really hard to prepare for the children's departure. And on April 5th, 1975, two days only um after President Forrest's announcement, um, we evacuated 409 children from Saigon to join their adoptive families on Pan Am flight.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

And Al, you were a firsthand witness to all of this history. Uh you wrote a book about it, uh Wings of Freedom. You can find it uh on the Pan Am Museum's online store or anywhere books are sold. Tell us a little bit about your experiences as Pan Am's country director during this pivotal time. You you not only cover Operation Babylift uh in your book, but you also talk about your role in the evacuation of almost 400 people in the final hours when North Vietnamese troops were closing in. Uh, let's first talk about the lead up to the evacuation and the crash of the US Air Force C-5A galaxy plane filled with these orphans.

SPEAKER_03 36:33

On that day, April 4th, when I saw that C-5A on the tarmac at Tonsonud Airport and loading all these children on, nurses, doctors, and what have you, I I just had a very sad feeling about that whole thing because a C-5A aircraft is not designed to carry babies or civilians, really. It's designed to carry troops and military hardware. But it the the size of that plane made it uh uh uh an opportunity for carrying large numbers of large numbers of people, especially babies and small children. So unfortunately, a few minutes after takeoff and that airplane was on its way to the United States, uh, they had a mechanical malfunction, and the aft cargo door was blown off, and they tried to return to Saigon and came up short and crashed about a mile short of the airport. And uh the number of fatalities was in the area of about 150, including children and and and adults that were just sucked out of the the uh rear uh compartment of the airplane. When that happened, that's that was the item that launched the uh the two Pan Am 747s that came in 24 hours later. And I I I'll tell you that the best way for me to describe that, I was just looking at my book at when I wrote about that, and let me just tell you what happened. Uh, I'll just read it to you actually. The night before the charter flights arrived, I barely slept, but I prayed a lot. My mind was going through a myriad of troubling thoughts. What if during the night the flights had to be canceled because of a sudden increase in the level of hostilities? What if we could not get enough volunteer crew members to work the flights? What if the South Vietnamese government had decided on a change of policy and announced that the waivers for the adoption program were canceled? Finally, I decided to toss those negative thoughts out of my mind and focus only on the positive things and place the rest of it in God's hands. So that that kind of gives you an idea of what I was going through at that time, not to mention what you know our employees and their friends and families were going through at the same time. The two 747s that came into Saigon on April 5th, one was the Hope charter. The second one was chartered by a guy by the name of Bob Macaulay in Connecticut. He saw this on the news. Of course, this was on the news around the world when that crash happened. And uh he took out a mortgage on his house and chartered the second 747 uh to come into Saigon. And this happened so quickly. I mean, I could not believe that that same within hours after the C5A crash, I got word from New York that this was these two airplanes were going to come into Saigon in 24 hours. And I made it clear to New York that under no circumstances should we have both airplanes on the ground at the same time in Saigon on April 5th. And the reason for that is it would just be such a tempting target for the North Vietnamese to see these two giant airplanes, which they could see for miles away, because the airplane is, you know, as tall as a five-story building at the tail, and you could spot it for miles away because the the terrain around Saigon was very flat. So on the day of departure, on April 5th, at that point we did not know what caused the accident with the C5A. So as we were loading these babies on the plane on April 5th, we were actually uh padding them down to make sure there were no explosives in their diapers. I mean, that's that is something that I will always remember. And when we finally uh loaded the first airplane, it was all buttoned up and was uh rolling down the runway for takeoff. I could see the second 747 on final approach to Saigon, and it was just perfect. As the first airplane was wheels up, the second one was touching down uh at Tonson Airport. That that was a memory that will forever be uh burned in my mind. That gives you an idea of what that was all about. And by the way, before we locked the door on the second airplane, I was up at the at the cabin door and I walked through the airplane and and saw all of these babies in some in bassinets, some in cardboard boxes, on the floor, under the seat in front of you, the whole bit. All of these kids were crying. And and I I got off of that airplane and I just thought to myself, they're flying from Saigon to San Francisco. I mean, it's not non-stop, but that's where they're going. They're stopping in Guam, Manila, Honolulu, and then San Francisco. But that airplane with all of those babies and volunteer nurses, doctors, flight attendants flying across the Pacific Ocean, it was just uh unbelievable, you know, mission that that was accomplished. And uh God bless all of those folks that that took care of all those kids uh across the ocean. It was just just amazing.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Well, and listening to Al, what are you thinking about?

SPEAKER_04 43:07

We are so forever grateful to our his team in Pen Am for bringing our children to safety, to their families. Um at a time, um, Ho International was offered a first plane out, um, but we let another group go first instead. And um, when the bad news happened, we were all very shocked at Ho International um receiving the news about a crash, and we were so sad for the children and adults on the airplane, and we continue to um pray for our children and adults and staff um to get to safety. And um, our team here in Oregon received a lot of inquiries. Inquiries from adoptive families, of course, asking about whether their children would be safe and when they're going to arrive. So we make sure we had a team here to respond to families and assure them and answer to their questions. But it was emotional for our team here at a time. And whenever we discuss about the Vietnam baby lift, we cannot thank enough for what Pan Am um hadn't done for the children and for us and for these families because it was a very unsafe situation for Pan Am and their team.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

Was there any Holt children on the US Air Force plane that crashed?

SPEAKER_04 44:56

No. We took the Pan Am on the second day.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Al, is there anything you want to add? You were on the ground there, you saw it all.

SPEAKER_03 45:09

Well, you know, there's a very interesting connection between baby lifts and our evacuation. And what happened was when the operation Baby Lift was implemented, normally to process an orphan would take sometimes weeks to go through the paperwork and the bureaucracy to get approval. But based on the fact that things were rapidly deteriorating, the South Vietnamese government, even though the South Vietnamese government was in disarray, they were still in charge. And they they were able to change their policy under a lot of pressure to just waive the normal procedure of adoptions and just let all the kids go. It didn't matter how long, how old they were, how what kind of condition they were in, and there was no real paperwork involved. So when I saw that happen, and at the same time, I'm I am losing a lot of sleep trying to figure out how to evacuate our employees because they were all South Vietnamese citizens, but they would have to get a visa to leave Vietnam because that was the law, even though the government was, as I said before, was in uh disarray actually, but they were still in charge. So I had this crazy thought, and I spoke to our supervisor of human resources, and I said, you know, let's try this. Because by the way, all this time our employees are working under a lot of pressure. Our flights are going out, uh, you know, 75% full, 70% full. And they're waiting for me to tell them when are they going to leave and how they're going to leave. Because I at that time I had no idea how this was going to happen, but we just kept working. And this is in early April now, and maybe the late latter part of March. So, any in any event, I suggested to our human resources supervisor to go down to the foreign ministry and get me the paperwork that I need to adopt the employees and their immediate family. And he thought that that was just a crazy idea. And I said, just let's just try it, let's see what happens. Because, you know, if if they're waiving all the documentation procedures for the orphans because they're going to be adopted, why not waive it for our staff? Because I'm telling the foreign ministry that Pan Ann and Al Topping is going to adopt our employees. Well, sure enough, he came back to the office with a stack of paperwork, all written in Vietnamese, and I just signed everything and they approved it. And that's that's in a nutshell how we uh were able to get our employees out. Now, the thing that was very challenging and difficult was in Pan Am's direction to me to get our employees and their immediate families out. We are talking about an employee and spouse and children. Well, in Vietnam, immediate family is employee, spouse, children, grandmother, grandfather, and and so on. So at the time we had 62 employees on the payroll. And uh the only American employees were myself and our maintenance manager. So when I got a list of all the employees and their immediate family members, the 62 employee number exploded to over 700 names. This was a big problem. I had a meeting with our managers and told them that uh we went over the whole definition of immediate family again, and I told them that I cannot look at this list and start striking people off the list. And it's going to be up to them to try to come up with a uh a reduction in the numbers. And they did. So we ended up with about 320 total employees and family members, and that's that's what we actually uh departed with in terms of uh our staff. One of our employees, uh, who was our operations manager had a uh very large family. He had eight children, his mother was very sick and too sick to travel, and he decided to uh to stay behind. And he felt that uh with such a large family, it would be very difficult for him to come to the United States and start all over again. And by the way, most of our employees, in fact, I would say probably 95% of all of our local Vietnamese employees have never never left Vietnam. They they worked for Pan Am, they lived there all their lives, and here they are going to uh a new country, new languages, and and uh trying to you know resettle in the United States. But anyway, he stayed behind, and I told him that you know that's a tough decision, but uh you know it's up to him. He certainly can bring his mother and his whole family, but he decided to stay behind. This is this is a very special situation. Fifteen years later, I was working in the Pan Am building, and I got a letter from him. I had not heard anything from him for 15 years. And and you know, once the North Ven North Vietnamese took over South Vietnam, they would go door to door to find out who you were, who'd you work for, and interrogate you and so on. And when they he wrote me this letter, six pages, handwritten, and he told me that when they found out that he worked for Pan Am, working for Pan Am was like working for the U.S. government. He was put into a uh re-education camp and he almost died, and they sent him home to die, but he didn't die. He wrote me this letter, and here we are 15 years later, and he says in his letter, can I help him now to get his family to the United States? Which I thought was just I I didn't know what to say, actually. I couldn't, I couldn't come up with the right thoughts of how how this could even happen at this point. But I did some investigating and found out that it was possible to get him and three of his youngest daughters to the United States, which we did. We uh I went back to Vietnam for the first time. That trip back to Vietnam uh went via Bangkok, and I looked uh uh I went to Bangkok first because at this point we did not have an embassy in Vietnam yet, but we the American embassy in in Thailand was where you would go to handle any Vietnamese matters. So there was a program, what they call the ODP Orderly Departure Program, where you could sponsor Vietnamese. And I was able to sponsor him and three of his daughters that were under 21. And they arrived in in Miami, Florida, two years later in 1993. That that was a very, very special moment that after all these years, and he was there, uh, he went through he went through a lot of suffering, and I was able to get him and three of his daughters. Today, you know, 48 years later, all of his children are in the United States, except for his three sons. They were still in Vietnam and they they chose to stay there. Sadly, I can tell you that he he passed away uh a few months ago in Vietnam because once he came to the United States, I was able to get him a job with United Airlines. At that time, Pan Am was no longer operating. And uh he retired from United. And he would split his time between the United States and Vietnam. He would spend six months here and go back and spend six months there. And while he was back there the last time he passed away, he became ill and passed away. But that that family, all of his children, they call me Uncle Al. We've kept in touch all these years, and we get together, you know, a number of times during the year for dinner or something, and and it's just uh it's just a wonderful thing to see how they're uh uh immigrating to the United States, how how well they've done uh living in the United States. And uh unfortunately uh for him, a few years after we left, his his mother did pass away, and his wife, unfortunately, was was also killed in a motorcycle accident in Saigon. So he was like a single parent with by this time 11 children when he when he came to the United States. But that's that's a very personal and wonderful story uh and relationship that we've had with that family for all these years.

SPEAKER_00 55:12

Do the two of you want to ask each other questions and have a conversation? Two grew up in Vietnam, Al, you lived there for a long time. Is there any questions you have for each other before we go into talking about the event that we had last year and then going on and talking about what Holt is doing today?

SPEAKER_03 55:34

Let me ask Twa a question. Two, when did you come to the United States?

SPEAKER_04 55:39

Um, I came here in 2008. Prior to that, I worked as a social worker for Holt's office in Danang in the central region of Vietnam.

SPEAKER_03 55:52

I was thinking that you might have uh been on our flight, but you're too young for that. So, okay, so you're working in in Danang.

SPEAKER_04 56:04

Yeah, I guess you since you were with Pen Am, you traveled to Danang a lot, right? It was a military base.

SPEAKER_03 56:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:11

During the wartime, it was a big military base of American and Southern government.

SPEAKER_03 56:18

Oh yeah. Uh you know, as a matter of fact, we used to operate an occasional flight out of Danang, but it wasn't uh a car, it wasn't a passenger flight while I was there, it was a cargo flight because we operated uh, of course, we used to operate the RR flights during the height of the war. We carried a lot of soldiers, you know, from Vietnam to uh destinations for a week like Hawaii and Guam and Hong Kong and so on. But I never went to Denang because there was really no need for me to go there. But I did go to other places in South Vietnam, like Vung Tao. Oh yes. Yeah, and I went to uh Fu Kwok Island, Kansan Island. Oh, what's the name of that that city in the mountains? Uh can't remember the name of it now. Um where it's cooler. Yeah, I went there, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:17

Yes, yeah, Dalak now becomes a place for you know couples going on honeymoon because of the very cool weather, and then Fuck becomes one of the most beautiful islands nowadays in Vietnam because of the beaches, yeah. And uh Voguntao, same, um, also a beach area where it becomes a tourist spot for not just domestic travelers but also international travelers. When was your last time back to Vietnam?

SPEAKER_03 57:51

Well, I went for the first time back in 1990, and then I went back again, I think it was 1995, maybe. Yeah, but it's it's certainly changed, certainly changed. When I went back for the first time in 1990, and sitting at the airport in Bangkok, and I looked up on the departure board, and it didn't say Saigon, it said Ho Chi Minh City.

SPEAKER_04 58:20

Yes, the name was changed. Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_03 58:24

And to this day, I will never call it Ho Chi Minh City, I will always call it Saigon. But uh yeah, when when the uh war was over, the Vietnamese government was trying to promote tourism and foreign investment, and they they uh took a lot of the foreign businessmen by helicopter to uh Fuquak Island to see the beach. It was just beautiful. I mean, there was no homes, no hotels, just a beautiful beach, clear crystal water. Uh it was so they have hotels over there now?

SPEAKER_04 59:02

Oh yes, yes, it becomes a very big resort area for local and international tourists. So the time, the last time you were in Vietnam was about a time that whole international resumed operation in Vietnam at the invitations of the Vietnamese government. We got back there in 1989 at the invitation of the Vietnam government to go back to support um develop programs for offense and uh for the child welfare system.

SPEAKER_03 59:40

You know, one thing I noticed when I went back for the first time to Saigon, um, first of all, when we touched down on that runway in Thompson Hood Airport 15 years later, I the that whole evacuation and C5A and everything all came back to me very vividly. But uh I I can tell you that uh going back there and I saw one of the things that was very sad was uh a lot of the orphans that did not get adopted or were not able to get out, a lot of them were biracial children now. They were like teenagers now, you know, and they were sort of roaming around the streets, and uh it was it was it was very sad. And um because I I know that during the the final days in April, there was a lot of negotiations going on behind the scenes during those days, and one of the things was that they didn't want any children, especially biracial children, to be left behind. But uh some of them were, but that was uh something that I noticed. But the other thing I noticed was that there used to be a lot of uh begging on the street and women with little babies. This is when I was working there with that were damaged, you know, injured by the war. I didn't see any of that anymore. It was just there just wasn't there anymore. And uh the hotels, the new hotels were up, and uh it was it was a whole different whole different ball game. And as a matter of fact, I went to the house that we used to live in in Saigon on Tucson Street, which I think translation is to Quiet Street, it was right across the street from the vice president's compound, vice president of South Vietnam. Oh so I went back to the house with uh with uh the former employee that stayed behind me. He was still there at that time, and I I wanted to go in the house to see what it looked like. And they let me in. And living in the house that used to be the Pan Am House was a retired North Vietnamese general living in the former Pan Am House. And I went into went inside, they let, you know, they said, okay, come in. And we sat down, had tea, and talked a little bit. And I had an office in the house, and I went into the office, and guess what? Was on top of the desk, my same desk, still sitting in the house. On top of the desk was the American Embassy Telephone Directory 15 years later, still sitting on the desk. So that was that was quite remarkable.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:53

That's very interesting. Yeah. Let's talk about April of 2022. The Panam Museum Foundation and Holt International held a joint event called Operation Baby Lift, a celebration of the human spirit. Al you were there, along with three flight attendants that were on one of those 747 uh jumbo jets with all the babies. And also present, and this was the first time that you met many of them, were about two dozen now adults that were babies on a operation baby lift. I I can say for myself, it was a very emotional time for me, just being witness to all of this. But Al, I want to talk about what was going through your mind and the emotions that you were experiencing seeing all of these Operation Babylift babies, now adults, some of them brought their children with them, and you were partly responsible for them coming to the West.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:10

Oh, yeah, that that was that was emotional, was putting it mildly. I mean, my first thought was, you know, I don't know if I actually carried any of those now adults on that play that day, because I helped to load some of those kids, but to see them now, fully grown adults, their own families, uh, and just a few years before that, they were infants and had no idea where they were going, how they were going to, what will they do when they get to the United States? They had no idea, and here they are, uh alive and well in the United States and all doing very well. But just, you know, it's just kind of hard to put it into words when you when you see a grown person that once was maybe you know in a cardboard box on a 747 with a seatbelt over the top, or in a bassinet, and flying for hours and hours across the Pacific and crying, and you know, and in fact, some of the there were a couple of kids that didn't make it. They were they were too ill when they left Vietnam and they they uh passed away during the trip. I think at least two that I can remember passed away. But but to see them now as adults and have having no clue of of how they how they arrived in the United States, they have no clue. And here they are. And totally American. I mean, totally American. Um, and it's uh it's uh as I said, it's it's something that you you have a hard time describing. You you have to be there. I mean, I I I know I know the feelings, I know the the emotions. Uh, and I as I sat there that at that event we had at the uh museum last year and and saw them and listened to them expressing their uh experiences to everyone, I just I I was the only one in the room, I think, that could really could really appreciate what was going on because they left Vietnam under some very, very difficult circumstances. And in fact, some uh some of those kids, I don't know if they were even, I think a number of those kids, some of them were not even uh processed to the point yet where they knew who was going to adopt them. They just were put on the plane just to get them out, get them out. Um and uh now after all of that uh chaos and and sadness, they they're fully grown and do not have any idea of what they went through uh back in in 75. No, as a matter of fact, just as an aside, I can tell you that one of our employees, uh at this point we we didn't know how we were going to evacuate our folks, but one of our employees who was just uh she had no relatives in Vietnam. She was Chinese, Vietnamese mixed, and she her family was in Hong Kong actually, and she wanted to leave. She didn't want to stay there. And so she worked at the airport. So one day in March, I told her, I said, You're in uniform, you know, you're one of our ground staff. When you go up to the cabin to give the flight attendant the manifest and paperwork, I said, just get on the plane and close the door. And she did. And so she went to Guam, and we were able to get her processed in Guam to go through the uh, you know, the uh immigration process of the ref of the refugee program. But she went to Guam with nothing, just a purse, nothing, just just left. And I told her, I said, just get on the plane. And I already told the flight attendants she's going, but she has no paperwork. And she went to Guam, which is the United States, and was able to get processed during the uh refugee uh process in Guam. But this was an adult, she was in her 20s, and uh so she knew what was going on, but the babies had no idea, of course. No idea, and they're just on this plane for hours and hours and hours. And I'll tell you, without our flight attendants and pilots who volunteered to operate those flights, it never would have happened.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:29

But it but it did. Antoine, I embarrassed Al. So I spoke at this event and I said to the crowd, uh, not all superheroes wear capes. And I pointed at Al and I said, Al, you are a superhero and you touched the lives of everyone in this room. I think I made you cry too, but we we won't tell anybody that I I've shed a few tears telling this story, no doubt about that. So, Twa, tell us a little bit about what Holt International is doing now. Uh, and also I'm a proud sponsor of a Vietnamese boy myself through Holt. Um, really?

SPEAKER_06 1:10:18

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:19

I I signed up at that event. Um so tell us, tell our listeners all the ways they can get involved uh with sponsorships and adoption and everything else.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:33

Thank you so much, Tom, for sponsoring one of our children in our overseas programs. Um, nowadays we have 16 different country programs that we operate in in the world. And of that 16 countries, we have 11 international adoption programs. And the children we place for international adoption nowadays are older children and children with special needs because we have seen a trend of local adoptive families opening their hearts and homes to adopt often in these countries as well, and often young, healthy babies. And leaving older children and children with special needs who are in need of international adoptions. We really need families for these older children and children with special needs. They deserve a family of their own. We also have um family strengthening programs in a lot of these countries where we provide educational support, economic empowerment programs for poor families so that they can do some small business to increase family household income so that they can provide for business for their children, or we provide free-day care, preschool for vulnerable children. Um, we support single moms. Um, we do a lot of these family strengthening programs around the world with the goal of supporting birth families to keep their children with their families. And um, so you can step up and sponsor the children in our programs as a way to support them to continue to be able to lead with their families.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:38

And your website is haltinternational.org. And there is a link in the episode description for that website. There's also a link in the episode description to watch James Earl Jones playing the superhero Al Topping in the movie Last Flight Out. And there's also a link in the episode description to purchase Al's book. Um, anything, Al and Twa, you would like to add as we near the end of this program?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:11

Yeah, I'd like to ask Two a question. Um now that the uh North Vietnamese have taken over South Vietnam and is now one country, how long does it take for uh the adoption process with the North Vietnamese government now in charge? In other words, from the time the initial request is made to adopt the child to the time the child leaves Vietnam for the United States, for example, how long does that process take now?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:45

I would say the adoption process from Vietnam takes an average up to two, three years from application to joining the families in the US.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:57

Two to three years.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:00

You know why it takes that long?

SPEAKER_04 1:14:03

Um, it's a lot of processing between both governments. I mean, US government also has requirements for homesity assessment for immigration approval. Um, and then the Vietnam government has their own set of regulations and processing steps. But I would say two to three years is kind of average and on a lower you know time frame these days um compared to other countries. Um, we see more up three to four years um in some other countries as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:44

Well, I guess at this point you don't have that many orphans, do you in Vietnam for adoption?

SPEAKER_04 1:14:50

I would say the Vietnam government has progressed a lot in providing child welfare services for vulnerable children and families. They provide a lot of family strengthening services to try to support both families to care for their children. And um and then also domestic adoptive families have changed their attitude towards domestic adoption as well. So we see more of um local adoptive families step up to adopt orphans, children and baby. Um, so that's why we see more of older children and children with special needs being available for international adoption these days from Vietnam. Um, I would say, yes, there are orphans living in orphanage throughout the country. Um but the number of domestic adoption um taking place in the country is far more than international adoption.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:04

Okay. So how many how many orphanages does Holt have in Vietnam?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:10

We place about 10 children from Vietnam a year to American families.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:16

No, I mean how many how many orphanages, you know, facilities does Holt have? They have one in Saigon and one in Benang, maybe?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:28

Um nowadays the model is very different compared to before. Um nowadays we partner with um either government-run orphanages or we partner with private um orphanages. Uh we do not operate orphanages on our own, um, but we work in collaboration um with the government and private groups in the country.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:58

I see. Okay. That's that's a whole different operation now, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:05

Okay, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:08

Well, Twa and Al, it was a pleasure to speak with you and thank you very much for coming on the program. And also, Twa, thank you for what you do for children around the world. And Al, you are one of my heroes. So anytime I have a chance to see or talk to you is just always a pleasure. So I want to thank both of you.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:33

Well, Tom, thank you very much for uh giving us this opportunity to talk about uh special time in Pan Amps history. And uh it was very nice uh to meet Trois and listen to uh what was involved with the whole agency and in uh the adoption program and and the role that they played in Operation Babylift. It was it was great to to talk about all of these things again. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:04

Thank you so much all for all Judith and for being such a hero um forever. We are so grateful for all Judith and all that your team did. We I cannot say enough how much it means to each of us and to all the children that we serve. And uh I'm so glad that I have a chance to meet you and learn from you and uh um the history that took place. And thank you so much, Tom, for allowing us the opportunity to discuss and to share and to learn about this important history milestone um in the children's and families' lives.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:44

Thank you guys so much. That was that both both of you beautifully said thanks again.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:51

Okay, Tom, thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:59

Pan Am was a pioneer in air travel and still stands as one of the most iconic and innovative airlines in aviation history. That legacy lives on at the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York, where you can explore the rich history of the aircrafts and individuals at the heart of the company known as the world's most experienced airline. For more information about the Pan Am Museum, check out our website at www.thepan Amuseum.org. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. As was once a tagline in one of our commercials, we would greatly appreciate your support to help the Pan Am Museum continue making the going great. You can also support the museum by shopping on our online store for all things Pan Am accessories, apparel, jewelry, books, models, and posters. We want to hear from you. If you have a question for us or want to share your story, our email address is podcast at the Pan Ammuseum.org. As flight crews once said to passengers departing for their destinations around the world, thank you for flying, Pan América,